City of Houston demands pastors turn over sermons

HartselleTider · Oct 17, 2014

Jon said:
don't know why you seem to be assuming that I would not agree. The turban should come off (though I will point that Turban wearers are more often that not Sihk's not mulsims but that is completely besides the point here) as no religion should receive preferential treatment or endorsement I've been pretty clear on my opinion here, no idea why it keeps getting thrown at me

as to your original point of course it wasn't painful or horrific, but I still should never have to sit in a church for an hour being told I have to give over to the power of god, or fear him or love him or any other such nonsense as a part of any Government action. Sorry but the Constitution is very specific here and I am simply right.

I will ask you on the Druggie as you put it. Would you be ok with the judge sending him, you or some other good christian to a Muslim Drug Treatment center where he or you as a christian had to swear to Allah as your savior or face prison? Or how about one from the Church of Scientology? I want an honest answer here.

and I'll also add spomething I neglected to earlier. Want evidence of forced religion on citizens? Legally I cannot hold elected office in 7 states, why? Let's see

Arkansas, Article 19, Section 1:
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.

Maryland, Article 37:
That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution.

Mississippi, Article 14, Section 265:
No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this state.

North Carolina, Article 6, Section 8
The following persons shall be disqualified for office: Any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.

South Carolina, Article 17, Section 4:
No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.

Tennessee, Article 9, Section 2:
No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.

Texas, Article 1, Section 4:
No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

The judge didn't make this guy swear to anything, that's the point. All they needed him to do IAW the law was to participate in the 12 step program. He wasn't required to believe in any particular God, or swear to any particular God. They said he could fake any higher power he wanted.... didn't matter if it was Mother Nature, Father Time, or the flying spaghetti monster.

Now if I was arrested for drug possession and they required me to attend a Muslim or Scientology rehab and told me I could fake whatever I wanted to.... I'd do it and get it over with. At least originally I would. Now I'd file a lawsuit and cash in.

I hope the courts in Cali are satisfied now. He can afford all the cocaine, meth, and whatever else he wants now. I'll bet this Atheist doesn't turn down all that money with "In God We Trust" on it and won't mind spending it. A real Atheist would never accept money with such a thing printed on it.

92tide · Oct 17, 2014

TexasBama said:
Ten pages without a Godwin devolution.

I'm impressed.

that sounds exactly like something goebbels would say

Jon · Oct 17, 2014

HartselleTider said:
The judge didn't make this guy swear to anything, that's the point. All they needed him to do IAW the law was to participate in the 12 step program. He wasn't required to believe in any particular God, or swear to any particular God. They said he could fake any higher power he wanted.... didn't matter if it was Mother Nature, Father Time, or the flying spaghetti monster.

So all he was required to do was compromise his principles, make a mockery of your entire belief system and lie in order to regain his freedom. You are OK with that? I wouldn't be. As atheists we don't believe that there is a higher power and we should have to lie about it to stay out of jail. But he's just a "druggie" so who cares right?

HartselleTider said:
Now if I was arrested for drug possession and they required me to attend a Muslim or Scientology rehab and told me I could fake whatever I wanted to.... I'd do it and get it over with. At least originally I would. Now I'd file a lawsuit and cash in.

So, you don't have principals and oddly as a Christian you seem to have no qualms with lying either. Interesting

HartselleTider said:
I hope the courts in Cali are satisfied now. He can afford all the cocaine, meth, and whatever else he wants now. I'll bet this Atheist doesn't turn down all that money with "In God We Trust" on it and won't mind spending it. A real Atheist would never accept money with such a thing printed on it.

I wouldn't turn it down, though I would officially ask to be paid in Pre-1956 cash just for fun

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_we_trust

HartselleTider · Oct 17, 2014

Jon said:
So all he was required to do was compromise his principles, make a mockery of your entire belief system and lie in order to regain his freedom. You are OK with that? I wouldn't be. As atheists we don't believe that there is a higher power and we should have to lie about it to stay out of jail. But he's just a "druggie" so who cares right?

So, you don't have principals and oddly as a Christian you seem to have no qualms with lying either. Interesting

I wouldn't turn it down, though I would officially ask to be paid in Pre-1956 cash just for fun

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_we_trust

Of course any Atheist wouldn't turn the money down with "In God We Trust" on it. His principles don't apply there. Only when it applies to fit their agenda. An Atheist druggie compromising his principles... my goodness. Oh did you say $2 million? Heck, what principles?

As I've already said, I'm not a religious individual and not a Chrisitian. My beliefs are more along the lines of a Deist.

Christians, Atheists, and many, many more walks of life are all asked to participate in things we don't want to. Christians and Atheists are both discriminated against everyday where I work just trying to get to their office. Nobody cares as long as a leftist neck doesn't face the knife of a Muslim fundamentalist. Just bully Christians.

Jon · Oct 17, 2014

HartselleTider said:
Of course any Atheist wouldn't turn the money down with "In God We Trust" on it. His principles don't apply there. Only when it applies to fit their agenda. An Atheist druggie compromising his principles... my goodness. Oh did you say $2 million? Heck, what principles?

As I've already said, I'm not a religious individual and not a Chrisitian. My beliefs are more along the lines of a Deist.

Christians, Atheists, and many, many more walks of life are all asked to participate in things we don't want to. Christians and Atheists are both discriminated against everyday where I work just trying to get to their office. Nobody cares as long as a leftist neck doesn't face the knife of a Muslim fundamentalist. Just bully Christians.

Outside of renouncing my citizenship and moving to a different country how can I possibly not use currency with In God We Trust on it? You seem to think you scored on this but since there is no way to avoid this and live in the US it is a pretty facile argument on your part.

As for you being a deist, now I know why it isn't hard for you to claim a higher power, you actually believe in one. I don't and won't lie about it so I deserve 100 extra days in Jail for the same offense? That's what Cali druggie got.

And sure we are all asked to participate in things we don't want. I used to have to go to church as a kid, also with my wife's family, even had my kids baptized to please her parents. None of which I wanted to do (her either honestly) the difference here of course is that being asked is far different than allowing the Governement to use deadly force or the power of incarceration to compel me to do something.

HartselleTider · Oct 17, 2014

Jon said:
Outside of renouncing my citizenship and moving to a different country how can I possibly not use currency with In God We Trust on it? You seem to think you scored on this but since there is no way to avoid this and live in the US it is a pretty facile argument on your part.

As for you being a deist, now I know why it isn't hard for you to claim a higher power, you actually believe in one. I don't and won't lie about it so I deserve 100 extra days in Jail for the same offense? That's what Cali druggie got.

And sure we are all asked to participate in things we don't want. I used to have to go to church as a kid, also with my wife's family, even had my kids baptized to please her parents. None of which I wanted to do (her either honestly) the difference here of course is that being asked is far different than allowing the Governement to use deadly force or the power of incarceration to compel me to do something.

We're not that far apart on some of this until you start bringing up Atheists and their principles. If it's based on his principles, then he should reject this money until the wording is removed and start a movement to get it done. Just the same as he rejected the rehab based on the same principle, and would reject citing "Under God" in the Plegde, so on and so forth.

It has nothing to do with principle. All they had to do was tell this guy to fake a higher power and they'd give him $2 million dollars and he would've done it. As would any Atheist. We're not stupid people, so let's stop pretending we are.

I think we have a common opponent here in regards to the Government. I'm extremely offended by what I see everyday coming to work. The security of a Government Nuclear Facility should always be a higher priority than the rights of one religion over the other. But that's not the case.

We don't have a common opponent in regards to Christians, and it has nothing to do with what we believe in or don't believe in. It has to do with leftists extremists that are so belligerent towards the mention of God or Christianity in society are nothing but cowards. Their principles are a war on the Christian faith. Nothing more.

chanson78 · Oct 17, 2014

This hasn't actually been that bad of a discussion. One of the few things I think are a bit off is that there seems to be a belief that there is some atheist agenda or some unifying organization that gives atheists some standard set of marching orders. There isn't some atheist pope out there making everyone who identifies as an atheist have the same basic set of principles or guidelines.

As an aside, here is something to think about. Likely most people who identify as an atheist that you have or have had contact with probably had negative experiences with a Christian religion which led them to feel the way they do. What may be seen as ad hominem attacks are more likely personal experience wrapped up in a generalization about the Christian religion as a whole. Now I'm not saying that atheists are the way they are out of spite. Just that I don't think it's fair to always assume an atheist is an anti-theist. They likely have the same arguments but for the most part atheists really don't care and just want to go through life without having to be impacted by religion.

Personal anecdote. When religious organizations couch the voucher system for school funding as a failing school remedy I get irate. When I have to worry that some state politician is hopping on the "teach the controversy" bandwagon and I have to worry about fighting that crap, it most definitely means I'm being impacted adversely by religion. The point has been made that the Christian religion is under attack when it seems to me that they have been on the offensive as of late.

Edit: that isn't to say there aren't elements of Islam to be cranky about. But in the here and now there are many more annoyances that impact me directly than any Islamic fear on the horizon.

BamaInBham · Oct 20, 2014

Jon said:
you poor repressed Christians

Where did I reference repression ?

I mentioned unequal application of the law in this specific case; and my broader thought was simply hypocrisy, and it seems to me to be quite valid. Do you really refute that ? It is obvious to any objective observer. Remember - hypocrisy (regarding black churches historically; I would add Islam currently) not repression.

Tide1986 · Oct 29, 2014

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-t...-announcement-on-sermon-subpoenas-5855458.php

The City of Houston will withdraw its controversial subpoenas of five pastors tied to a lawsuit over the city's equal rights ordinance, Mayor Annise Parker announced at a news conference Wednesday.

The announcement came amid a national firestorm about the subpoenas, which have prompted outrage among Christian conservatives. Parker said two meetings yesterday, one with local pastors and another with national clergy, persuaded her to pull the subpoenas altogether.

Displaced Bama Fan · Oct 29, 2014

Sounds like she met with Brother Osteen and Brother Quannell X who both promised to keep their masses in line.

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