City of Houston demands pastors turn over sermons

NationalTitles18 · Oct 15, 2014

Jon said:
we need to get rid of tax exempt status for religions. If they want it for the charitable side let them set up separate charities (as corporations do) and be done with it.

After that let them say what they want and openly advocate for candidates, I'm good with that

Or just do away with the income tax the nation survived without for well over 100 years. That would be far preferable than either the IRS controlling the speech of churches/pastors or taxing churches on donated money that has already been taxed.

cuda.1973 · Oct 15, 2014

NationalTitles15 said:
Or just do away with the IRS the nation survived without for well over 100 years. That would be far preferable than either the IRS controlling the speech of churches/pastors or taxing churches on donated money that has already been taxed.

FIFY!

Jon · Oct 15, 2014

NationalTitles15 said:
Or just do away with the income tax the nation survived without for well over 100 years. That would be far preferable than either the IRS controlling the speech of churches/pastors or taxing churches on donated money that has already been taxed.

100% agreement

GreatDanish · Oct 15, 2014

NationalTitles15 said:
Or just do away with the income tax the nation survived without for well over 100 years. That would be far preferable than either the IRS controlling the speech of churches/pastors or taxing churches on donated money that has already been taxed.

But think of all the wonderful people employed by the IRS that would need new jobs.

NationalTitles18 · Oct 15, 2014

Jon said:
wow so many things

first and foremost if true I have a huge problem with this. Y''all know I've no love for religion but this at first glance does appear to be a violation of the first amendment.

Second, I italicized if true for a reason. This one in fact http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/01/...g-fake-story-about-persecution-of-christians/ The author, Todd Starnes is a known and proven liar. Plenty of sources out there if you care to google

all that said there are some additional nuances here. You'd never know it by how little they get punished for it, if ever, but churches must remain 100% neutral in their politics in order to retain Tax Exempt status. That means no bashing candidates as well as no outwardly supporting them or telling their congretation who to vote for. Personally I'd love to see churches called out for this or at least start paying taxes.

In the end I'll say their sermons are protected speech as long as they are not specifically telling anyone who to vote for. I'll try to look into some non-starnes sources later to figure out what is really up here

edit to add that I cannot find a source on this that isn't just someone reporting that Fox/Starnes reported this with a quick google news search. If anyone finds a non Todd Starnes source for this please let me know.

NationalTitles15 said:
Or just do away with the income tax the nation survived without for well over 100 years. That would be far preferable than either the IRS controlling the speech of churches/pastors or taxing churches on donated money that has already been taxed.

Jon said:
100% agreement

I'm confused. Not trying to pick on you. I'm hoping you changed you mind.

Bama Reb · Oct 16, 2014

GreatDanish said:
But think of all the wonderful people employed by the IRS that would need new jobs.

That's OK. I hear the CDC is going to be hiring real soon!!

bamahippie · Oct 16, 2014

In related news, I demand that the city of Houston turn over all hate-speech, derogatory and/or negative comments, or simply crude jokes make against Christians, or non-Christians that do not share the same view as the city of Houston. I am speaking specifically of those comments that have been made in the confines of government property, offices, etc. You know and I know that there have been private things shared.

I know that's not apples-apples, but anyhoo...

Jon · Oct 16, 2014

NationalTitles15 said:
I'm confused. Not trying to pick on you. I'm hoping you changed you mind.

could see how that could be

let me clarify

on taxation I favor a version of the Fairtax or something similar to 9/9/9. Basically I think the IRS should be disbanded and another version which limits political power and lobbyist influence over taxation and policy

but since that is a dream scenario that will likely never come to pass or is at minimum a decade off (have to decouple it from the tea party which has turned into the evangelical party or it will never happen) then I'd simply like an overhaul of current taxation which gets rid of the tax exempt status for Churches and Clergy as I can see absolutely no reason for them to have special status in our Secular society

make sense?

crimsonaudio · Oct 16, 2014

Jon said:
then I'd simply like an overhaul of current taxation which gets rid of the tax exempt status for Churches and Clergy as I can see absolutely no reason for them to have special status in our Secular society

Agree with most of your post, though again, I think the tax-exempt status of churches help keep the separation of church and state more absolute.

Unless I'm mistaken, only the church as an organization is tax-exempt - all ministers pay income tax.

Jon · Oct 16, 2014

crimsonaudio said:
Agree with most of your post, though again, I think the tax-exempt status of churches help keep the separation of church and state more absolute.

Unless I'm mistaken, only the church as an organization is tax-exempt - all ministers pay income tax.

yeah, I was somewhat mistaken there. They still get special treatment (and shouldn't IMO) such as not paying Social Security or Medicare and that's huge

Even though clergy are considered employees of a church or religious denomination, they can be treated as being self-employed for Social Security and Medicare tax purposes.

Clergy receive an income tax-free housing allowance and/or may live in a church-provided parsonage.

Since clergy are treated as self-employed, the religious institution they work for cannot withhold Social Security or Medicare tax from their paychecks.

However, extra federal tax can be withheld at the request of the clergy-person to cover the self-employment tax.
Most salaried clergy people might also be eligible for the Earned Income Tax Credit.

source http://www.protax.com/articles/article/clergy-are-blessed-with-almost-tax-free-status/

92tide · Oct 16, 2014

crimsonaudio said:
Agree with most of your post, though again, I think the tax-exempt status of churches help keep the separation of church and state more absolute.

Unless I'm mistaken, only the church as an organization is tax-exempt - all ministers pay income tax.

yes, but clergy can designate a significant portion of their compensation as housing "allowance" or something like that that is, iirc, tax exempt. i don't remember the exact details. i think many clergy also get access to church "discretionary" funds that (not always, mind you) are ripe for abuse if not monitored (or if you have financially naive clergy) closely.

crimsonaudio · Oct 16, 2014

Jon said:
yeah, I was somewhat mistaken there. They still get special treatment (and shouldn't IMO) such as not paying Social Security or Medicare and that's huge

But they also do not qualify for those benefits.

Jon · Oct 16, 2014

92tide said:
yes, but clergy can designate a significant portion of their compensation as housing "allowance" or something like that that is, iirc, tax exempt. i don't remember the exact details. i think many clergy also get access to church "discretionary" funds that (not always, mind you) are ripe for abuse if not monitored (or if you have financially naive clergy) closely.

yeah, clergy abuse this stuff like mad (so much for render under Caesar that which is Caesar's) often they "own" nothing. House is owned by the Church, so is the car, the boat, the airplane, the vacation house, etc etc etc and the IRS very very rarely goes after any of them in order to not appear to be going after churches.

Jon · Oct 16, 2014

crimsonaudio said:
But they also do not qualify for those benefits.

yeah well neither will any of us as the accounts will be empty by the time we qualify

Jon · Oct 16, 2014

Jon said:
yeah, clergy abuse this stuff like mad (so much for render under Caesar that which is Caesar's) often they "own" nothing. House is owned by the Church, so is the car, the boat, the airplane, the vacation house, etc etc etc and the IRS very very rarely goes after any of them in order to not appear to be going after churches.

oh yeah and I should add that churches also pay no property taxes I wonder how much revenue the City of Atlanta will now see as the Catholic church finally got shamed into dumping their ~$4m million on west paces?

92tide · Oct 16, 2014

Jon said:
yeah, clergy abuse this stuff like mad (so much for render under Caesar that which is Caesar's) often they "own" nothing. House is owned by the Church, so is the car, the boat, the airplane, the vacation house, etc etc etc and the IRS very very rarely goes after any of them in order to not appear to be going after churches.

yeah, luckily when i was in the position of treasurer/finance chair at my previous church, i was only dealing with naivety, not crookedness. but yeah, the way churches are set up, they are ripe for abuse, and a lot of cash can move through with few/no traces (e.g. cam). if you get folks determined to be crooked, its relatively easy to get away with.

92tide · Oct 16, 2014

Jon said:
oh yeah and I should add that churches also pay no property taxes I wonder how much revenue the City of Atlanta will now see as the Catholic church finally got shamed into dumping their ~$4m million on west paces?

in most major cities, churches own lots (literally) of the most valuable real estate, usually in blocks, keeping it off of the property tax rolls

TexasBama · Oct 16, 2014

92tide said:
in most major cities, churches own lots of the most valuable real estate, usually in blocks, keeping it off of the property tax rolls

92tide · Oct 16, 2014

TexasBama said:

another issue i have with many of the churches, especially the mega churches, is that similar to large shopping centers/malls, vast amounts of their property are massive parking lots

bamachile · Oct 16, 2014

Eliminating the federal tax exemptions wouldn't affect me or my congregation much. The only one that would affect us is the property tax, which is state. Even that shouldn't be a killer, as we aren't that big. Since our founder threw moneychangers off the original grounds, we don't have a coffee shop, book store, or as much as a lapel button for sale. If it's available to the public, it's free.

City of Houston demands pastors turn over sermons

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