City of Houston demands pastors turn over sermons

HartselleTider;2485810[B said:

]My question is why the left wages such an attack on Christianity and the concept of it's fundamentals, but won't so much as touch the very same concepts in Islam? Not a peep. Is it because they fear Islam and a host of extremists over here cutting THEIR heads off?[/B]

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HartselleTider,

I second everything you said. If you had not said it, I would have. They show that chart, but the President says we are not a Christian nation. President O., look at that chart provided by Jon!

In 20 years that chart will look much different because of the decapitators religion. So, I guess the President is a man ahead of his time. I say do not fear the decapitator religion. Our life on this earth is only temporary. The next one last eternally.

I just wonder what some people will be thinking as they breathe their last breath and that heart starts to stop. Will they be thinking about those 72 virgins and the amazing life they will have in Paradise or will they be thinking that this really is, The Eternal End of a Life!

bamahippie said:

I didn't say "Christian", I said God-fearing. A simple inference would lead one to believe that if you are God-fearing, you hopefully have a strong moral make-up, would display superior character, and sound integrity. I believe that describes most of our founding fathers. And I don't think that describes most of our current leadership, and it continues to get worse, no matter the party in charge. Erosion. That was my larger point. But if you want, read about halfway through what a guy says, latch onto one quote, and run with that. Fine by me. And yes, disagreeing with guys with me is your right, your freedom, your liberty... Isn't that great? I think so. But the evidence is that tolerance of Christian folk and their beliefs is slowly going the way of the dodo. And some folks either have their heads in the sand, or simply don't care. I take it you're the latter. If in my lifetime, if one day "having church" is no longer allowed where the gospel is preached, or I can't even have a home bible study, you best believe I will break that law. This is already a reality in other parts of the globe. People are dying in those places. It may not happen in my lifetime, but who's to say it will not eventually happen, with the way the political and religious climates are heading in this country? Moral "walls" are being torn down each and every year. It's a shame. And I didn't say I was being repressed, so kudos on your Monty Python and pie charts that are irrelevant to what I said. I said not "at this time", and I'm OK "for now". Thought I bolded that. What I am talking about has not happened yet. But with all of the clouds having gathered for a while, a storm's coming. One day. Whether the founding fathers were all God-fearing, and -believing, I dunno. But I don't think they envisioned a day when there was so much God-hate here. I really don't. It's OK that we disagree. At the moment, it's a free country. I'm gonna go shoot some fireworks, or sumpin'.

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lots of points to address I'll try and go after them all, let me know what I miss and apologies in advance to those of you that this is bound to upset

Why should anyone fear your God? Don't Christians preach that God is love? Why should any rational person fear love? Never ever have understood this point and frankly don't think I ever will. To me this is no different from saying Islam is a religion of Peace....

As for God Fearing founders, sure many of them were, many were also Christian. They also had come to this country and set it up in no small part to insure religious freedom and demonstrably did not set up this country as a "christian" nation. Most notably we atheists love to point out the Treaty of Tripoli as evidence as it was ratified unanimously within the same generation as the Founding of the Country and by many of the founding fathers. For those that cannot be bothered to follow links I'll include here the famous line from Article 11 of the again unanimously ratified treaty

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion

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as for God providing our morals that is an entirely new thread but to me is a non starter which I am sure shocks you. My argument would point out that morals have existed since before anyone thought up Christianity, Judiasm or any of the Abrahamic offshoots. You can look into ancient cultures around the world and see moral behaviors from peoples who never had any exposure to any of the ideas that became Christianity, were the ancient Chinese not moral? How could they survive and flourish as a culture for thousands of years without ever hearing of Christ if not?

as for the rest I think you are a bit delusional and have been suckered by the known liars like David Barton who lie about the past and the brilliant Fox news types that are trying to scare you about the future. No one is going to tell you that you can't practice your faith and I will commit to standing next to you in the fox hole with a rifle to defend your rights to do so if it ever happens

92tide said:

and yet, reading your entire post (which i did with the earlier one, btw) shows that your fear/expectation of "erosion" is based in large part on your misunderstanding of the founding of our country (that god-fearing is the foundation of morality, integrity, and character) along with an active imagination of bad things that might happen to you in the future (despite everything being ok "at this time" or "for now").

ironically, our country is more "free" now than it was at time of our founding.

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so much better than my response, not sure why I try

Jon said:

the pie chart? It simply points out that a massive majority of the people in this country identify as Christians and that it is extremely funny to me to see such a large majority try to claim to be a victim of oppression/repression.

Now, I will ask show me any example of a single Christian losing their right to practice their faith in the US. As an added challenge I will ask only that stories from Todd Starnes, known and proven liar for the cause (ain't that just sooo Christian?) be excluded from your examples and this includes stories from WND and other far right sources that "are reporting that Todd Starnes from Fox is reporting" because that is the same source of lies that I have excluded from the debate. Line em up and show us.

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Yeah like I said, repressing of rights has nothing to do with whether or not you're a majority on a pie chart. I think it's well know that Chrisitianity is the most popular religion in America. That's not the point.

Furthermore, as a previous poster has already pointed out, he does not feel that his right to practice his faith is repressed for now. Although I think it's fairly obvious that the left is trying it's best to rid society of any mentioning of God. They have a bone to pick with organized religion, but they only chose one to wage war against.

It's not Christianity that the left needs to be worried about, it's Islam that ALL of us need to be concerned with in my opinion. Doesn't matter whether you're Atheist, Christian, Deist, Buddhist, Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, or Republican. Non of those are a physical and real threat to the other. They just disagree.

I think the left needs to focus on all organized religions that oppose their own righteous quest for this group or that group. Not just the one they can bully. As Americans and "Westerners", we ALL have to come together at some point to curb the infestation of Islam and it's teachings.

Then we can get back to arguing over politics and whether or not Mary was really a virgin.

92tide said:

and yet, reading your entire post (which i did with the earlier one, btw) shows that your fear/expectation of "erosion" is based in large part on your misunderstanding of the founding of our country (that god-fearing is the foundation of morality, integrity, and character) along with an active imagination of bad things that might happen to you in the future (despite everything being ok "at this time" or "for now").

ironically, our country is more "free" now than it was at time of our founding.

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I did not say that I feared it was eroding, or that I expected it to erode. I said that it was eroding, and had been for quite some time. So, no, you didn't quite read it. It is not my imagination.

Jon said:

lots of points to address I'll try and go after them all, let me know what I miss and apologies in advance to those of you that this is bound to upset

Why should anyone fear your God? Don't Christians preach that God is love? Why should any rational person fear love? Never ever have understood this point and frankly don't think I ever will. To me this is no different from saying Islam is a religion of Peace....

As for God Fearing founders, sure many of them were, many were also Christian. They also had come to this country and set it up in no small part to insure religious freedom and demonstrably did not set up this country as a "christian" nation. Most notably we atheists love to point out the Treaty of Tripoli as evidence as it was ratified unanimously within the same generation as the Founding of the Country and by many of the founding fathers. For those that cannot be bothered to follow links I'll include here the famous line from Article 11 of the again unanimously ratified treaty


as for God providing our morals that is an entirely new thread but to me is a non starter which I am sure shocks you. My argument would point out that morals have existed since before anyone thought up Christianity, Judiasm or any of the Abrahamic offshoots. You can look into ancient cultures around the world and see moral behaviors from peoples who never had any exposure to any of the ideas that became Christianity, were the ancient Chinese not moral? How could they survive and flourish as a culture for thousands of years without ever hearing of Christ if not?

as for the rest I think you are a bit delusional and have been suckered by the known liars like David Barton who lie about the past and the brilliant Fox news types that are trying to scare you about the future. No one is going to tell you that you can't practice your faith and I will commit to standing next to you in the fox hole with a rifle to defend your rights to do so if it ever happens

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Oh wow. READ, people. Read.

Did I say that you had to fear my God, Jon? I really do wonder how my points led to all these offshoots? I merely said that many of them were God-fearing, which you agreed with. And "fearing God" is not exactly what you apparently think it means. That's a whole different topic. I was simply framing that that was the basis of the morals of many of them. They said so themselves. The origin of morals is yet an altogether different topic as well, so the origin of sin, what man thinks right and wrong is, etc, is your opinion. And I'm glad a bunch of atheists got together and declared something. Woohoo! Congrats! Reminds me of a bit done by comedian Daren Streblow, but i digress...

As for Fox, Barton, whoever. I will admit, I do NOT watch the news. No Fox, no conservative talk radio, no nothin'. Too depressing. I get all of my current events from the NS board. This is where it's at! Haha

And if it comes down to it (and I sincerely don't think it will in my lifetime), I would be honored to have you stand up with me. Let freedom ring, for all.

HartselleTider said:

Yeah like I said, repressing of rights has nothing to do with whether or not you're a majority on a pie chart. I think it's well know that Chrisitianity is the most popular religion in America. That's not the point.

Furthermore, as a previous poster has already pointed out, he does not feel that his right to practice his faith is repressed for now. Although I think it's fairly obvious that the left is trying it's best to rid society of any mentioning of God. They have a bone to pick with organized religion, but they only chose one to wage war against.

It's not Christianity that the left needs to be worried about, it's Islam that ALL of us need to be concerned with in my opinion. Doesn't matter whether you're Atheist, Christian, Deist, Buddhist, Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, or Republican. Non of those are a physical and real threat to the other. They just disagree.

I think the left needs to focus on all organized religions that oppose their own righteous quest for this group or that group. Not just the one they can bully. As Americans and "Westerners", we ALL have to come together at some point to curb the infestation of Islam and it's teachings.

Then we can get back to arguing over politics and whether or not Mary was really a virgin.

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We* are not trying to Rid Society of Christianity

We* are not trying to rid Society of God

We* are trying to insure all of our Freedoms by ridding Government of religion

there is a massive difference here

If we* win when the muslim population grows to a majority anywhere in this country they will not be able to impose their crap on you. If you win, they will. Why can so few of you see this?

*and I'm not on the left, never voted for a Democrat not named Zell Miller and have sadly often voted Republican

Jon said:

We* are not trying to Rid Society of Christianity

We* are not trying to rid Society of God

We* are trying to insure all of our Freedoms by ridding Government of religion

there is a massive difference here

If we* win when the muslim population grows to a majority anywhere in this country they will not be able to impose their crap on you. If you win, they will. Why can so few of you see this?

*and I'm not on the left, never voted for a Democrat not named Zell Miller and have sadly often voted Republican

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My question to you is, when, where, and how does the Government force Christianity on it's citizens, or infringe the rights of those who don't subscribe to it? I'm not a religious individual, and I've never felt that I was being forced to be by the Government.

Secondly, it seems like it's not the fear of a particular religion imposing it's crap that the left cares about. It's any religion being the majority, or more popular than their crap that they fear. That explains a lot actually.

Islam doesn't care if you're Christian, Atheist, Democrat, or Liberal. You're not Muslim, therefore you're an infidel... therefore you must die. End of discussion. But sure, let's worry about what's written on the dollar bill or two words in the Pledge of Allegiance.

HartselleTider said:

My question to you is, when, where, and how does the Government force Christianity on it's citizens, or infringe the rights of those who don't subscribe to it? I'm not a religious individual, and I've never felt that I was being forced to be by the Government.

Secondly, it seems like it's not the fear of a particular religion imposing it's crap that the left cares about. It's any religion being the majority, or more popular than their crap that they fear. That explains a lot actually.

Islam doesn't care if you're Christian, Atheist, Democrat, or Liberal. You're not Muslim, therefore you're an infidel... therefore you must die. End of discussion. But sure, let's worry about what's written on the dollar bill or two words in the Pledge of Allegiance.

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Let's see on point 1

I was personally forced to go a participate in a baccalaureate ceremony at Baptist church or was told that I could not graduate, from a Georgia public school in the 80's. I still regret not fighting it

Thousands of American's are forced to go to AA or Other Religious often Christian based drug and alcohol treatment centers every year by judges in this country where they must "turn themselves over to a higher power" often your God sometimes a nebulous "higher power" that is used to try and obfuscate that its really a christian god to try and sidestep the Constitution in order to complete their treatment. By the way not completing their treatment often leads to jail time. Thankfully this practice is finally ending as an atheist recently got a well deserved $2M settlement for being forced back into prison for refusing to go to a religious indoctrination center.

Second, I don't speak for the left even if we are allies in this particular fight so I cannot address their motivation. Mine is simple, freedom. Freedom in my case to not believe.


And third why can't we worry about both? You know that the pledge as originally written did not include god right? You know it was added in the 50's by Congress to try to separate us from the Godless Commies. As for the money I'd prefer our motto to be E Pluribus Unum but whatever

bamahippie said:

I did not say that I feared it was eroding, or that I expected it to erode. I said that it was eroding, and had been for quite some time. So, no, you didn't quite read it. It is not my imagination.

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you can parse it however you wish. and yes, it is your imagination.

Jon said:

Let's see on point 1

I was personally forced to go a participate in a baccalaureate ceremony at Baptist church or was told that I could not graduate, from a Georgia public school in the 80's. I still regret not fighting it

Thousands of American's are forced to go to AA or Other Religious often Christian based drug and alcohol treatment centers every year by judges in this country where they must "turn themselves over to a higher power" often your God sometimes a nebulous "higher power" that is used to try and obfuscate that its really a christian god to try and sidestep the Constitution in order to complete their treatment. By the way not completing their treatment often leads to jail time. Thankfully this practice is finally ending as an atheist recently got a well deserved $2M settlement for being forced back into prison for refusing to go to a religious indoctrination center.

Second, I don't speak for the left even if we are allies in this particular fight so I cannot address their motivation. Mine is simple, freedom. Freedom in my case to not believe.


And third why can't we worry about both? You know that the pledge as originally written did not include god right? You know it was added in the 50's by Congress to try to separate us from the Godless Commies. As for the money I'd prefer our motto to be E Pluribus Unum but whatever

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in god we trust became the official us motto in 1956. coincidentally, this is the same year that the drunken louts of the georgia legislature changed the georgia flag to include the stars and bars.

Of course a religious majority would never be repressed by a minority one:

Jon said:

to those that liked this, what point is actually being made here? No one on this thread claimed we were being oppressed by Christians and I never claimed it, ever, anywhere. Really out of left field here GMart. And by the way I fervently hope you and all the other repressed majority never experience real repression.

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Are you saying that the extent to which one can "express" his religion today is the same or greater than the extent to which one could "express" it 50 years ago?

Tide1986 said:

Are you saying that the extent to which one can "express" his religion today is the same or greater than the extent to which one could "express" it 50 years ago?

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define express

Jon said:

define express

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This'll work:

ex·press

(

k-spr

s

)tr.v. ex·pressed, ex·press·ing, ex·press·es
1. To set forth in words; state
2. To manifest or communicate, as by a gesture; show
3. To make known the feelings or opinions of (oneself), as by statement or art
4. To convey or suggest a representation of; depict
5. To represent by a sign or a symbol; symbolize

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Jon said:

Let's see on point 1

I was personally forced to go a participate in a baccalaureate ceremony at Baptist church or was told that I could not graduate, from a Georgia public school in the 80's. I still regret not fighting it

Thousands of American's are forced to go to AA or Other Religious often Christian based drug and alcohol treatment centers every year by judges in this country where they must "turn themselves over to a higher power" often your God sometimes a nebulous "higher power" that is used to try and obfuscate that its really a christian god to try and sidestep the Constitution in order to complete their treatment. By the way not completing their treatment often leads to jail time. Thankfully this practice is finally ending as an atheist recently got a well deserved $2M settlement for being forced back into prison for refusing to go to a religious indoctrination center.

Second, I don't speak for the left even if we are allies in this particular fight so I cannot address their motivation. Mine is simple, freedom. Freedom in my case to not believe.


And third why can't we worry about both? You know that the pledge as originally written did not include god right? You know it was added in the 50's by Congress to try to separate us from the Godless Commies. As for the money I'd prefer our motto to be E Pluribus Unum but whatever

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Did you lose any fingers or toes during that horrific experience? It doesn't sound like you were forced to believe anything.... just participate in something.

As for the druggie in Cali, he didn't want to participate in any sort of rehab. If you're going to break the law for possession of meth, it shouldn't matter if the judge sentences you to rehab where they prefer that you submit yourself to the flying spaghetti monster. Just do it and get it over with. They didn't force him to "believe" anything. They told him he could fake whatever power he wanted.

Perhaps since an Atheist is convinced that they ARE the higher power and have it all figured out, he should be able to get off the drugs on his own. Or maybe Atheists should pool up some money for a rehab program for Atheists. See how that works out....

Bottom line we're all asked to participate in things we don't want to or subscribe to.

I work at a nuclear plant. Every morning we must empty our pockets, take off our jackets, hats, etc. to go through metal detectors, bomb detectors, and X-ray machines. UNLESS, you're a Muslim wearing a Turban... you do not have to remove your Turban.

Now please explain to me why a Muslim wearing a Turban doesn't have to abide by the same security measures that a Christian or Atheist wearing a baseball cap does? It's absurd.

The reason you can't worry about both is because one is clearly losing their rights in this country (both Christian and Non-Religious) while the Muslim is gaining rights to enter government nuclear facilities by virtue of being exempt from security procedures based on religion. This is what the left brought. I see it everyday.

Tide1986 said:

This'll work:

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Are you saying that the extent to which one can "express" his religion today is the same or greater than the extent to which one could "express" it 50 years ago?

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ex·press

(k-sprs)tr.v. ex·pressed, ex·press·ing, ex·press·es
1. To set forth in words; state
2. To manifest or communicate, as by a gesture; show
3. To make known the feelings or opinions of (oneself), as by statement or art
4. To convey or suggest a representation of; depict
5. To represent by a sign or a symbol; symbolize

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based on that I would say Greater today than 50 years ago

in fact far greater


50 years ago you could freely express your religion, your neighbors and the few hundred people you regularly encountered. Today, thanks to the Internet and other modern communication tools you can express your religion to Millions very very easily and feel no ill effects for doing so

HartselleTider said:

Did you lose any fingers or toes during that horrific experience? It doesn't sound like you were forced to believe anything.... just participate in something.

As for the druggie in Cali, he didn't want to participate in any sort of rehab. If you're going to break the law for possession of meth, it shouldn't matter if the judge sentences you to rehab where they prefer that you submit yourself to the flying spaghetti monster. Just do it and get it over with. They didn't force him to "believe" anything. They told him he could fake whatever power he wanted.

Perhaps since an Atheist is convinced that they ARE the higher power and have it all figured out, he should be able to get off the drugs on his own. Or maybe Atheists should pool up some money for a rehab program for Atheists. See how that works out....

Bottom line we're all asked to participate in things we don't want to or subscribe to.

I work at a nuclear plant. Every morning we must empty our pockets, take off our jackets, hats, etc. to go through metal detectors, bomb detectors, and X-ray machines. UNLESS, you're a Muslim wearing a Turban... you do not have to remove your Turban.

Now please explain to me why a Muslim wearing a Turban doesn't have to abide by the same security measures that a Christian or Atheist wearing a baseball cap does? It's absurd.

The reason you can't worry about both is because one is clearly losing their rights in this country (both Christian and Non-Religious) while the Muslim is gaining rights to enter government nuclear facilities by virtue of being exempt from security procedures based on religion. This is what the left brought. I see it everyday.

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don't know why you seem to be assuming that I would not agree. The turban should come off (though I will point that Turban wearers are more often that not Sihk's not mulsims but that is completely besides the point here) as no religion should receive preferential treatment or endorsement I've been pretty clear on my opinion here, no idea why it keeps getting thrown at me

as to your original point of course it wasn't painful or horrific, but I still should never have to sit in a church for an hour being told I have to give over to the power of god, or fear him or love him or any other such nonsense as a part of any Government action. Sorry but the Constitution is very specific here and I am simply right.

I will ask you on the Druggie as you put it. Would you be ok with the judge sending him, you or some other good christian to a Muslim Drug Treatment center where he or you as a christian had to swear to Allah as your savior or face prison? Or how about one from the Church of Scientology? I want an honest answer here.


and I'll also add spomething I neglected to earlier. Want evidence of forced religion on citizens? Legally I cannot hold elected office in 7 states, why? Let's see

Arkansas, Article 19, Section 1:
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.

Maryland, Article 37:
That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution.

Mississippi, Article 14, Section 265:
No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this state.

North Carolina, Article 6, Section 8
The following persons shall be disqualified for office: Any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.

South Carolina, Article 17, Section 4:
No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.

Tennessee, Article 9, Section 2:
No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.

Texas, Article 1, Section 4:
No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

Ten pages without a Godwin devolution.

I'm impressed.

TexasBama said:

Ten pages without a Godwin devolution.

I'm impressed.

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You know who else didn't like Godwin?