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The College HUNH QB and the NFL

RTR91

RTR91

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As with any case, the team/organization's personnel matters. Many of the players mentioned in this discussion are talented and went early in the draft, which means the team wasn't very good the previous season. The only "athletic" QB to win a Super Bowl is Russell Wilson, and that is because of the team personnel - solid OL, great RB, and stout defense.

This discussion doesn't center around the HUNH philosophy. It centers around athletes playing QB rather than having a mobile passer (ala Rodgers and Luck). GMs will continue to draft the athletes that put up big numbers in college because it excites their fan base, which needs to be done if the team is coming off a 2-12 season, and the GMs tend to believe they have the staff to turn the athlete into a pocket passer. When that experiment fails and the GM is fired, some other organization will hire him because the NFL recycles guys.

As others mentioned, QBs will still go to teams that go up tempo while being spread, zone-read offenses because it is what they run it high school because the spread allows high school teams to play on a more level playing field. That's not going to change in the near future.

Another thing needed for consideration when having this discussion - NFL coaches. I mentioned the GMs thinking their staff can fix a guy. In reality, they're trying to put an obtuse in a circle. There are parts of the QB that work well, but the QB isn't ideal for the pro-style offense. Many of the NFL coaches are either trying to learn the offenses from college coaches or making their own up. Be curious to see how guys do with coaches who have used the system for 5+ years rather than a few months during the off season.
 
tidefanbeezer

tidefanbeezer

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B1GTide said:
That is a totally different discussion, but I agree. Running QBs have had success in the NFL, but only one has won the Super Bowl - and that only happened last year. Every other running QB failed once he reached the SB. Even Elway failed to win a SB as a scrambler - he didn't win one until he was older and no longer a scrambler.
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Not to get picky, but Steve Young was a bit of a scrambler and he won a Super Bowl. :)
 
Bama Lee

Bama Lee

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There is a difference between HUNH and the spread read option offenses. Many coaches employ both and do not trust their QB's to read the defense. A HUNH can be run out of most any formation, but the play is typically signaled in with those silly signs. The idea is to run up tempo (10 seconds per play). The read option and spread formations have a more difficult time being successful in the NFL due overall speed of the defense (and football IQ about reading reacting to what they see). QB's that can read a defense, make audibles, and correctly throw the option routes of NFL offenses will typically come from schools that run similar offenses to Stanford and Alabama versus the spread. Alabama and Stanford will sometimes run HUNH.
 
T

TitleWave

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Snuffy Smith said:
An NFL draft analyst was talking about this on Mike & Mike Monday. They were discussing whether JW or MM would be drafted first. His take was that JW would come out of college ready to play in the NFL while MM would take a couple of years to learn to run a pro style offense. Obviously that changes if the Eagles draft him [emoji6]

The one thing he has going for him is he seems to be more accurate than many of the HUNH QB's
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Corollary to this is why I have high hopes that Green Bay might see fit to spend a 6th or 7th round pick on Blake Sims - he's got both the pro-style and HUNH under his belt, and he gets the ball out in a hurry in the West Coast offense way. Fingers crossed for the next five months.
 
J

JustNeedMe81

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I’m cherry picking from the list based on the website: http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?type=position
As you can see, It’s not just QBs who played in tempo offense that are struggling, it’s also Pro style Qbs as well. Lot of that is due to Offense coordinator and Head coaches, not willing to tailor the offense to fit the Qb’s style. So this whole thing about HUHU struggling, I think it’s a myth.
2014- Blake Borltes, Johnny Manizel, Teddy Bridgewater, Derek Carr, Jimmy Garopplo, Logan Thomas, Tom Savage, AJ Mcarron, Zach Mettenberger, David Fales, Tajh Boyd . ( Bortles, Manziel, bridgewater, Carr, Mettenberger and Boyd are having rough year, but it is expected since they are Rookie.
2013- EJ Manuel, Geno Smith, Shoot, all of the QB drafted are essentially a bust at this point, except for Matt Barkley.
2012- Andrew Luck, Robert Giffin, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, Russell Wilson, Nick Foles, Kirk Cousin ( Luck, Wilson and Foles are doing great job and Foles is injured at this moment. Rest of the QBs….. Bust. Tannehill might get one more year to prove he can get the job done. Kirk Cousin, hard to tell what’s going on with him.)
2011- Cam Newton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick, Ryan Mallet, TJ Yates, Greg McElroy (Newton, Dalton and Kaepernick isn’t having good year. McElroy is retired, Ponder, Locker, Gabbert, Mallet, yates had a chance to secure their job, but didn’t. This could be bust in few years. Dalton could lose his job to AJ McCarron, if he doesn’t improve in the near future.
2010- Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow, Jimmy Clausen, Colt McCoy, Mike Kafka, John Sketon, Johnathan Crompton, Job Webb. Enough said.
2009- Matthew Safford, Mark Sanchez, (both are starting this year. )
2008- Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Chad henne, Dennis Dixon, Colt Brennan ( Ryan, Flacco are the only starter form this class.)
 
Bama Czar

Bama Czar

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JustNeedMe81 said:
I’m cherry picking from the list based on the website: http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?type=position
As you can see, It’s not just QBs who played in tempo offense that are struggling, it’s also Pro style Qbs as well. Lot of that is due to Offense coordinator and Head coaches, not willing to tailor the offense to fit the Qb’s style. So this whole thing about HUHU struggling, I think it’s a myth.
2014- Blake Borltes, Johnny Manizel, Teddy Bridgewater, Derek Carr, Jimmy Garopplo, Logan Thomas, Tom Savage, AJ Mcarron, Zach Mettenberger, David Fales, Tajh Boyd . ( Bortles, Manziel, bridgewater, Carr, Mettenberger and Boyd are having rough year, but it is expected since they are Rookie.
2013- EJ Manuel, Geno Smith, Shoot, all of the QB drafted are essentially a bust at this point, except for Matt Barkley.
2012- Andrew Luck, Robert Giffin, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, Russell Wilson, Nick Foles, Kirk Cousin ( Luck, Wilson and Foles are doing great job and Foles is injured at this moment. Rest of the QBs….. Bust. Tannehill might get one more year to prove he can get the job done. Kirk Cousin, hard to tell what’s going on with him.)
2011- Cam Newton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick, Ryan Mallet, TJ Yates, Greg McElroy (Newton, Dalton and Kaepernick isn’t having good year. McElroy is retired, Ponder, Locker, Gabbert, Mallet, yates had a chance to secure their job, but didn’t. This could be bust in few years. Dalton could lose his job to AJ McCarron, if he doesn’t improve in the near future.
2010- Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow, Jimmy Clausen, Colt McCoy, Mike Kafka, John Sketon, Johnathan Crompton, Job Webb. Enough said.
2009- Matthew Safford, Mark Sanchez, (both are starting this year. )
2008- Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Chad henne, Dennis Dixon, Colt Brennan ( Ryan, Flacco are the only starter form this class.)
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The question is not really about QBs that utilized a HUNH "quick-snap" gimmick in college struggling in the NFL..... It is really about QBs that operated in a spread / read-option style of offense in college struggling in the NFL.

Since very few QBs that come into the NFL turn into "superstars" regardless of what offensive system they operated in college (the success rate is very small), perhaps it is a better assessment to look at only the "superstar" QBs in the NFL over the past 20-25 yrs and then determine what their background was in college. I am willing to wager that the vast majority of QBs that were successful superstars in the NFL had a "pro-style" that they operated in college.
 
BamaJama17

BamaJama17

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Isaiah 63:1 said:
Winston 2014 has been at best a mediocre quarterback (so far):
  • His INT-TD ratio is .71, the third worst among the top 50 QBs (ranked by number of touchdowns)
  • His Total QBR is 76.3; good for 17th nationally
  • FSU ranked 43rd in total yards per game
  • FSU ranked 29th in points per game
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Yeah I don't get how he can go from having a Heisman/All-American year to a total slump. FSU is loaded with great players and he had an excellent supporting cast around him.
 
Con

Con

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Isaiah 63:1 said:
Winston 2014 has been at best a mediocre quarterback (so far):
  • His INT-TD ratio is .71, the third worst among the top 50 QBs (ranked by number of touchdowns)
  • His Total QBR is 76.3; good for 17th nationally
  • FSU ranked 43rd in total yards per game
  • FSU ranked 29th in points per game
Click to expand...
I think that Winston's off the field troubles have finally caught up to his focus on the field. Yes, they are winning, but winning very ugly with a lot of mistakes on his part.
 
TrampLineman

TrampLineman

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gtgilbert said:
First - I think it's inaccurate for the comparison to be HUNH versus traditional speed. We could run our pro-style offense as a HUNH and prep a QB perfectly well for the NFL. Really all that is is getting to the line faster, like we did this year. There is a minor difference in that the QB probably isn't making quite as many pre-snap reads since the OC is doing that for him from the sideline, but the mentality is the same.

The real comparison is for the Zone-read, dual-threat running QBs and how that translates to running a pro-style offense. These guys are the ones having a really hard time. Their passing isn't the same as passing from the pocket. To the list above add Kaepernic and Russell wilson. They did well for a while, but two things have happened:
1. The NFL seems to have figured out how to handle the dual threat nature and contain it somewhat
2. injuries to many of the dual threat QBs have added up and kept them from being effective after a season. NFL LBs and S are ready to put a big time hurt on anyone downfield and it's a liability to have the QB running around too much. Owners invest way to much $$ in these guys to have them risk injury to that degree.

Newton is the only one so far that's been able to morph into more of a pocket passer
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I wouldn't put Russell Wilson in the dual threat category though. Even though he will run when he needs to, he is generally a pretty smart QB and was always more of a pocket passer ala Drew Brees/old John Elway than Kapernick. They do at times like to mix it up with him but he is not one I think of as a dual threat like I do Kapernick, Johnny Football, $cam, etc.

RGIII was the dual threat HUNH spread type QB that everybody loved until he got to the NFL and had to actually read a defense. Now he can't do anything and looks like a 1st year QB.
 
G

gamersfuel

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there are NFL teams that run a hurry up offense and will continue to do so. just not the read option that we see in college. that doesnt work in the NFL due to the size, speed, and technique of NFL defenders.
 
U

UAinAthens

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Offenses in the NFL have operated HUNH before. Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, and Boomer Esiasson all had success operating offenses without the huddle, and Manning, Rodgers, and Brady will do it today. But the comments above are correct, the key is the ability to read defenses on the fly. In college, the defense might have 2-3 defensive starters at best, and if you can get your potential NFL receiver up against their non-NFL DB, then he's going to win the battle and either be open or catch the ball anyway.

In the NFL, the windows are tiny, and the receiver is running a route tree. When he lines up, the route combinations change by how the defender lines up, and the route choice changes based on what he does on the snap. The QB and receiver not only have to read that, but have to agree in how they read it or instead of a completion you get an interception. Zone read offenses do not teach this. It doesn't mean the zone read QB cannot do it, but they don't get the practice.

I posed a question several years ago that asked if Tebow had chosen UA with Shula, an excellent QB coach, instead of Meyer, what might have changed. I argued that he might have developed into a decent pro style QB and had a decent pro career. We'll never know, but we do know that he did not have that capability from the zone read.

BTW, Russel Wilson cannot be judged the same as the others because he ran multiple offenses in college at both UNC and Wisconsin, and therefore wasn't a pure zone read QB.
 
Snuffy Smith

Snuffy Smith

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TitleWave said:
Corollary to this is why I have high hopes that Green Bay might see fit to spend a 6th or 7th round pick on Blake Sims - he's got both the pro-style and HUNH under his belt, and he gets the ball out in a hurry in the West Coast offense way. Fingers crossed for the next five months.
Click to expand...
I work for a Milwaukee based company and spend about 2 weeks a month there. That plus EL and Haha have turned me into a bit of a cheesehead. I would love to see Blake get a shot up here.
 
81usaf92

81usaf92

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the problem with HUNH in the NFL is that you have DLs that are just as fast as people like Marriota. Just ask Johnny Football. I told everyone that Johnny couldnt dance around like he did in college, but I got laughed at when I said it.
 
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