CNS talks about helping DJ Pettway

Chukker Veteran

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He doesn't leave behind messes like some other coaches and I have no reason to believe he's anything other than a man of integrity in deeds, not just in public posturing.
It is certainly possible to completely agree with this statement while at the same time having this conversation. Discussing the wisdom of a decision on a discussion board does not equal suggesting he's not a man of integrity. I think you, Krazy, know that, but I also think it needed to be said.
 

JustNeedMe81

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My one suggestion to Saban would be: Ease up a tad on the Bama fans. I understand we sometimes seem difficult and even hypercritical...but responding in kind might not be the best reaction. I'd like to see a little more sweet-talk directed at the fan base and a little less frustration with us.
Why? Why do you think a sweet-talk approach will work with the Alabama fans? That would spell disaster and Honestly, if we did something like that, we would be walking all over the coach and not appreciating him...
 

NationalTitles18

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Why? Why do you think a sweet-talk approach will work with the Alabama fans? That would spell disaster and Honestly, if we did something like that, we would be walking all over the coach and not appreciating him...
Well, while I appreciate greatly Coach Saban, I am glad we have not fallen into a cult worship where daring to question the dear leader is a reason for excommunication or worse. Our critical nature and skepticism regarding even the best coach in college football today helps us avoid a Paterno-like situation. I am happy for that. CNS should understand that. Perhaps in his "cocoon" he does not even consider it, but when folks simply defer to him (which id fine) and then criticize others for questioning him I have a problem with that mentality. I will question anyone anytime. It is my nature. If someone can't handle it - whether the person I criticize or someone else - too bad. I will be respectful, but I will not fall into a cult mentality. Nor should I. Nor should you.
 

JustNeedMe81

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Well, while I appreciate greatly Coach Saban, I am glad we have not fallen into a cult worship where daring to question the dear leader is a reason for excommunication or worse. Our critical nature and skepticism regarding even the best coach in college football today helps us avoid a Paterno-like situation. I am happy for that. CNS should understand that. Perhaps in his "cocoon" he does not even consider it, but when folks simply defer to him (which id fine) and then criticize others for questioning him I have a problem with that mentality. I will question anyone anytime. It is my nature. If someone can't handle it - whether the person I criticize or someone else - too bad. I will be respectful, but I will not fall into a cult mentality. Nor should I. Nor should you.
Umm OK....
 

CrimsonForce

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Well, while I appreciate greatly Coach Saban, I am glad we have not fallen into a cult worship where daring to question the dear leader is a reason for excommunication or worse. Our critical nature and skepticism regarding even the best coach in college football today helps us avoid a Paterno-like situation. I am happy for that. CNS should understand that. Perhaps in his "cocoon" he does not even consider it, but when folks simply defer to him (which id fine) and then criticize others for questioning him I have a problem with that mentality. I will question anyone anytime. It is my nature. If someone can't handle it - whether the person I criticize or someone else - too bad. I will be respectful, but I will not fall into a cult mentality. Nor should I. Nor should you.
+1. No one is (or should be) above reproach..
 
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TrampLineman

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I will admit I was leary of bringing D.J. back but of course I had no idea what his extent was in all of that mess. It must of not been that bad if coach give him the option of coming back after that.

No matter what though, he has proved why Coach brought him back and D.J. should be applauded for acting right after being given a 2nd chance.
 

KrAzY3

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I want to preface this by saying something. Nick Saban was not my first choice to coach Alabama, Steve Spurrier actually was. Obviously I was wrong, but I point that out to make it clear that I had some doubts. Nick Saban erased all of those though, and I do think you have to judge people on a continuing basis. I judge Nick Saban according to his actions, no more, no less, and so far his actions have been exemplary.

It is certainly possible to completely agree with this statement while at the same time having this conversation.
Of course, but I do hope people can do so in a reasonable manner. Repeat assertions (by some in this thread) that DJ assaulted someone, despite evidence to the contrary for instance, is irresponsible in my opinion. So, everyone has a right to an opinion, and even to disagree with Nick Saban, but I would hope they do so in a reasonable manner.

Our critical nature and skepticism regarding even the best coach in college football today helps us avoid a Paterno-like situation. I am happy for that. CNS should understand that. Perhaps in his "cocoon" he does not even consider it, but when folks simply defer to him (which id fine) and then criticize others for questioning him I have a problem with that mentality. I will question anyone anytime. It is my nature.
Well, first let's be clear, it can't be a one way street. Fans can't rant and rave about something Nick Saban said, and then act like it's just too much for him to make a critical statement about them. Well they can, but it makes no sense. I've seen fans outright say they want him to hurry up and retire, and I find that just ridiculous, but some fans simply can't take any critique at all. Contrast that with the fact that there's perpetually, some critique of Nick Saban out there, and it's hardly balanced.

The issue I have, is with the tone of criticism and the fact that some fans can't be coached. Let's face it, Nick Saban doesn't need us to coach him. He might very well be the best in the world at what he does, that means only a handful of people out there are really qualified to give him advice on how to do his job. Conversely, the fans do, in my opinion and from what I can tell his, fall under his purveyance. He credits us with helping, and if he believes we help, he sees us as part of the process. So, my issue is that some fans don't seem to see their role as part of the process and instead want it to be some petty tit for tat scenario. That doesn't work with players and probably doesn't work with fans either.

I just don't like the FSU or Penn State comparisons at all. To draw a comparison to my for instance defending his criticism of fan support (which I myself criticized), or my defending his giving DJ a second chance for what was apparently a non-violent act on his part, in no way correlates to Winston's abuse of a woman being covered up, or Penn State covering up for Sandusky. I've made it clear there is a line, and that I don't even like the fact that Penn State still has a football program. I've also said I'm not sure I could stomach watching Alabama football again if they covered up for a rapist. It's not the same, and believe me, I'd be the first to call Saban into question if he crossed the line. He hasn't though. We absolutely should be the first to call anyone into question when they do something wrong, I'm just not sure exactly what Saban has done (at least that's worth posting about on a forum) wrong thus far.
 
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Chukker Veteran

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Ok, first off, it's ridiculous and despicable to compare the Winston situation to DJ.
It is certainly possible to completely agree with this statement while at the same time having this conversation.
Of course, but I do hope people can do so in a reasonable manner. Repeat assertions (by some in this thread) that DJ assaulted someone, despite evidence to the contrary for instance, is irresponsible in my opinion. So, everyone has a right to an opinion, and even to disagree with Nick Saban, but I would hope they do so in a reasonable manner.
I prefer your word choice of "irresponsible" much more than the two words you went with upstream in an earlier post... "ridiculous and despicable". Once you've labeled another poster's viewpoint with words like despicable, it makes it more difficult to have a civil conversation.

Not a big deal for me, but I just wanted to throw that thought out there.

I've read enough of your posts to know you are sharp enough to realize I'm not trying to be argumentative with you just for sport. I generally agree with your point of view 90% of the time, and look forward to reading what you've posted when I see you have a new comment up.
 

NationalTitles18

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I want to preface this by saying something. Nick Saban was not my first choice to coach Alabama, Steve Spurrier actually was. Obviously I was wrong, but I point that out to make it clear that I had some doubts. Nick Saban erased all of those though, and I do think you have to judge people on a continuing basis. I judge Nick Saban according to his actions, no more, no less, and so far his actions have been exemplary.


Of course, but I do hope people can do so in a reasonable manner. Repeat assertions (by some in this thread) that DJ assaulted someone, despite evidence to the contrary for instance, is irresponsible in my opinion. So, everyone has a right to an opinion, and even to disagree with Nick Saban, but I would hope they do so in a reasonable manner.


Well, first let's be clear, it can't be a one way street. Fans can't rant and rave about something Nick Saban said, and then act like it's just too much for him to make a critical statement about them. Well they can, but it makes no sense. I've seen fans outright say they want him to hurry up and retire, and I find that just ridiculous, but some fans simply can't take any critique at all. Contrast that with the fact that there's perpetually, some critique of Nick Saban out there, and it's hardly balanced.

The issue I have, is with the tone of criticism and the fact that some fans can't be coached. Let's face it, Nick Saban doesn't need us to coach him. He might very well be the best in the world at what he does, that means only a handful of people out there are really qualified to give him advice on how to do his job. Conversely, the fans do, in my opinion and from what I can tell his, fall under his purveyance. He credits us with helping, and if he believes we help, he sees us as part of the process. So, my issue is that some fans don't seem to see their role as part of the process and instead want it to be some petty tit for tat scenario. That doesn't work with players and probably doesn't work with fans either.

I just don't like the FSU or Penn State comparisons at all. To draw a comparison to my for instance defending his criticism of fan support (which I myself criticized), or my defending his giving DJ a second chance for what was apparently a non-violent act on his part, in no way correlates to Winston's abuse of a woman being covered up, or Penn State covering up for Sandusky. I've made it clear there is a line, and that I don't even like the fact that Penn State still has a football program. I've also said I'm not sure I could stomach watching Alabama football again if they covered up for a rapist. It's not the same, and believe me, I'd be the first to call Saban into question if he crossed the line. He hasn't though. We absolutely should be the first to call anyone into question when they do something wrong, I'm just not sure exactly what Saban has done (at least that's worth posting about on a forum) wrong thus far.
It is absolutely an asymmetrical relationship. He gets paid $7m+/yr to take the criticism and deal with it appropriately. I pay my money as a fan to see the games, but merchandise, and the like. Very asymmetrical, indeed. So it makes perfect sense. I appreciate the "coaching" of fans, but sometimes the coach needs coached as well.

Now, let's look at the criticisms. At the least, Pettway was an accessory to a violent assault and robbery. We can argue all day the exact role, the legalities, and the rightness or wrongness thereof...but while we don't have all the info, we do know that much and our opinions on the legality and their rightness matters even less as the DA care not what we think.

So beyond my fandom I am an alum of the University. I spent my money, spent my time and effort and toiled to earn my degree. Furthermore, I have a daughter that attends the University. She attended when this assault happened. So did/does her boyfriend. Either could have been on the receiving end of this vicious assault of which Pettway was an accessory.

Thank God Almighty they were not; but the point is that I am not just a fan sitting out here with transient interest and little to no reason to be concerned over the matter beyond perception of the University.

So when Coach Saban criticizes those who question him on the matter I have a problem with that because not all of us are merely sitting in the stands without any potential direct repercussions from his decision. I heard about the original assault and worried, as a parent. I heard Pettway was coming back and worried "What if something happens again? Would he step up like a man and put a stop to it the next time - if there is a next time?" Because that's what parents do, whether their kids like, whether you like it, and whether Coach Saban likes it or not. It's my job to be concerned. To question. To criticize any decision that has the potential to put my child at risk of serious bodily injury, however low the threshold of my worry may be and whether it is rational or not. And that's not up for debate. Not by my kid, and not by you, and not by CNS.

So, yes, I wish he would show more understanding that some of us had very reasoned and legitimate concerns about the decision for Pettway to come back beyond whether or not he "deserved" a second chance. Because you see, I don't care about whether someone deserves a second chance. I care if my kid might be put in danger by the decision.

Now, if the decision were mine as a parent of a student I would have said "NO!" Obviously, the decision was not mine and the University and CNS have their own concerns and I understand a coach in many ways is like a parent. But when your kid shows enough poor judgment to get kicked out of school, don't be surprised if I show concern when the decision is made to let him come back and be around my kid at the same school. It's not about your concern or ego for me. It's not a petty concern. It's very tangible to me, so to have that dismissed summarily is, to put it mildly, disconcerting.

I am glad for Pettway he had another opportunity and that he has kept out of trouble and proven his coach to be right. That's great. It really is. But I have my own set or priorities and will criticize and do so with respect whenever I wish wherever I am "allowed" to do so. And I appreciate this site being here for respectful discussion, even when we don't agree.
 

4Q Basket Case

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Guys, I'm on record several times over thinking the re-admission of DJ Pettway into the University, let alone letting him back on the football team, was a mistake...on the part of a lot of highly-compensated individuals. And I stand by that.

But let's not allow this to become a referendum on Saban.

There is only one coach in Alabama history who can hold a candle to Nick Saban. If Saban stays a while (my personal over / under is three years -- the season of 2017), he might do the unthinkable in overtaking Coach.

While any of us may legitimately disagree with any given decision, extrapolating that out to questioning continued service is beyond ludicrous.

Yes, he's human. So no, he's not perfect. Let the first perfect person out there offer themselves up as the successor.

I don't agree with every single decision the man makes. But holy crap, if this isn't your guy, who is?

My opinion as to Mount Rushmore of coaches of any sport?

John Wooden
Vince Lombardi
Paul Bryant

Today, Knute Rockne and Saban are dueling for the 4th spot. In 2017, it might not be in question.
 

RTR91

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I don't remember anyone making this a referendum on Coach Saban. He is the best coach in the college football land, bar none. No one should think criticism of one or more coaching or non-coaching decisions equals a referendum.
You've been around long enough to know some posters take any questioning of Saban as a poster meaning he/she doesn't want Saban. It makes little sense, but some posters interpret posts like yours that way. Not sure why, though.


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NationalTitles18

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You've been around long enough to know some posters take any questioning of Saban as a poster meaning he/she doesn't want Saban. It makes little sense, but some posters interpret posts like yours that way. Not sure why, though.


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I'm not sure why either. I wanted Coach Saban above all, but did not think we would be fortunate enough to get him. Thank goodness and Coach Moore that we did get him. The day he was hired I told Mrs. NT15 we'd have our first NT with him within 4 years or sooner and there were very good chances we'd have 2 in 5 or 6 years, and 3 or 4 within 10 years if he stayed that long. I also said we'd be in contention for the SECT and NT each year with very few exceptions and that even after he leaves the infrastructure for continued success will be in place more so than before. He has met and exceeded my expectations on the field. There are very few issues I have with Coach Saban. His fiery nature is endearing, even if it occasionally leads him a little astray. He has quickly adapted to changes in the game. He has kept Alabama's program as clean as any in the country. He graduates players. The positives go on and on, so surely a little nit-picking here and there and a few disagreements with decisions are allowed. Even Coach Bryant had to deal with the occasional criticism for both on-field and off the field decisions. If Coach Bryant was not immune to it I don't see why Coach Saban should be. Heck, I hope he stays long enough to surpass Coach Bryant in total NT's at Alabama (plus his one at the who's, so that means 7+1 or 8 total or more, or IOW at least 4 more to go!). I'd love to see it done.
 

KrAzY3

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I prefer your word choice of "irresponsible" much more than the two words you went with upstream in an earlier post... "ridiculous and despicable". Once you've labeled another poster's viewpoint with words like despicable, it makes it more difficult to have a civil conversation.
Well, the poster that I was taking exception is no longer around. Having said that, my choice of words sometimes are overly barbed and generally that's not my intent. I don't intend to make a discussion personal. When I hear someone compare the situation to FSU, I hear something like "That's like a player raping someone and the University covering it up". That provokes an emotional reaction on my part because I do view rape in a different context, and the details are very different.
I pay my money as a fan to see the games, but merchandise, and the like. Very asymmetrical, indeed. So it makes perfect sense. I appreciate the "coaching" of fans, but sometimes the coach needs coached as well.
One of the toughest things a high profile coach has to deal with would be fans/boosters. Yes, they are necessary, but they often demand interaction with him and time which he really has little of to spare. I've never heard a single major football coach tell a story about how that one boosters who he had to talk to coached him up and gave him the right advice. To me it's like going up to Peyton Manning and giving him advice on how to throw the football.

I'm sure Nick Saban can use advice on a lot of things, like finances, or the like because he devotes his time and efforts into being a football coach and doesn't focus on those things. Mind you, if he wasn't absolutely one of the best at what he does, if he didn't have a stellar track record, I'd buy into the notion that may be he needs advice. But, this isn't giving Johnny Manziel tips on how to throw the ball, this is giving Peyton Manning tips. This isn't trying to coach Mike Shula, this is talking about a guy who outdid Mike Shula in every way I think think of, including academics.
So when Coach Saban criticizes those who question him on the matter I have a problem with that because not all of us are merely sitting in the stands without any potential direct repercussions from his decision.
I watched the entire clip. What he did was adamantly defend giving a player a second chance. He didn't defend DJ's actions, he didn't try to say well DJ didn't actually do anything, instead he just laid out how it can provide tremendous benefit to give a player a second chance. You want to talk about girls in college, well that was his main example. A girl is going to Princeton in part because her dad got a second chance.
At the least, Pettway was an accessory to a violent assault and robbery. We can argue all day the exact role, the legalities, and the rightness or wrongness thereof...but while we don't have all the info, we do know that much and our opinions on the legality and their rightness matters even less as the DA care not what we think.
I have tried to be careful not to defend DJ's actions, much in the same way I think Saban was careful not to. The way Jimbo went out there and stood up for abusers of women was disgusting to me, and if Saban did that I'd express my disgust. But, there are two things that are relevant in terms of Pettway that I guess have to be reiterated. One of the two victims said he did not believe DJ participated in the assault. I don't know what the other said, but there is also a report DJ did not leave the car. That does make a world of difference to me, and I would have trepidation if I saw any indication DJ so much as threw a punch. But, a guy sitting in a car doing nothing is not a threat to your daughter. It's as simple as that.

I brought up one thing about myself already, but I grew up in the Williamson district in Mobile. It was a rough neighborhood. I had other stuff going on, I even lived by myself for a while when I was 16. I wasn't a bad kid, I never got into any real trouble, but I was an unhappy kid and I did act out. One incident involved my hanging out with one of my older (adult) brother's friends. One morning we end up in Mississippi, there's one other guy with us, I'm the only non-adult present. He starts saying everyone is at church and we can just break into a house. Now, it was dumb of me to be in the car with them in the first place. I should have been extremely vocal about my disagreement with this idea, however, this is someone who later on threatened to kill me if I didn't comply with his demands. He also at another point threatened to drop me off in the middle of nowhere. So, the right thing to do was clear, but it's not so black and white if you consider a broke kid with no phone being dropped off in rural Mississippi, or worse having something happen to him because he argues with the wrong guy. So, I didn't resist the idea and fortunately he decided not to do it.

But, if he'd gone into a house, and who knows what might have happened, we all know I'd have been charged in the crime. And I would have been in the wrong for not trying to stop him, but no, that wouldn't have made me what that guy is. It wouldn't have made me a threat to others. It merely would mean I showed poor judgement. I don't at all agree with lumping kids together, and tossing some away like garbage because they happened to be around the wrong people, because they happened to be from a tougher environment and might not be as appalled by poor behavior as others might be. I'll tell you, you have to relearn how to deal with people once you get outside a hostile environment. And it's oh so easy to judge, if you don't know what it's like, and it's not an excuse for poor behavior, but we go way too far in my opinion to lump the aggressor and people who might be his friend or acquaintance together. A guy can have his life ruined because he sat in a car. I think that goes too far, and I think minor details matter in these type situations.

Having said all of that, I do think it's ok to say you disagree with Nick Saban (although I would have harsher words for anyone whose stated goal is for Saban to leave, and that has happened here surprisingly). Whether or not you're a fan, whether or not you have a kid going to the college. That's fine. But, I'm an inherently honest guy and for my part my opinion is formed according to what I know and my understanding. As long as someone is being civil and reasonable in what they say though, I see nothing wrong with discussing issues like this on either side of the fence.
 
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NationalTitles18

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I have never in my life gone to CNS and offered advice. I do plenty of armchair coaching and Monday morning quarterbacking, though. I'm just a guy who sometimes voices a different opinion among family and friends and on the interwebs.

I'm not going to get into a back and forth on the legalities and such, but driving the getaway car makes one at least partially responsible when you have some knowledge of what is going to happen and the law may or may not be more murky when you don't know. I have an uncle who is being laid to rest this very morning. I am a pallbearer. In his younger and wilder days he got in with the wrong crowd. They robbed a store after he passed out in the back seat of a car. My understanding is he was going to be prosecuted right along with the lot of them, but every one of those boys told the same story - that he had no knowledge of their plans and that he was asleep in the car. My understanding is that this swayed the DA and he did not pursue a case against my uncle although he could have anyway. So I know a little about being in the wrong place with the wrong people at the wrong time. Pettway made a conscious decision to be there and if things had ended much worse for him he'd only have himself to blame, IMHO. Sitting in a car knowing something bad is going to happen and not stopping it and then driving those who committed the crime away makes you a participant and not an innocent bystander. I'm quite sure you won't agree, but that's the way I see it. Details do matter, as I have laid out in my late uncle's case. Had he been awake and aware he'd have done time, and rightfully so.
 

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