The Effort to Understand ISIS (so we can kill them better)

Tidewater · Dec 30, 2014

As much as I condemn American journalists for incompetence, corruption or just plain stupidity, I owe the profession a hat tip when they actually write something worth reading.

This piece, from the NYT, no less, doesn't actually suck.

I think Nagata is headed in the right direction and hope he orchestrates the deaths of lots and lots of these swine.

Displaced Bama Fan · Dec 30, 2014

Link?

Tidewater · Dec 30, 2014

Displaced Bama Fan said:
Link?

Oops. Thought I had it in there.
In Battle to Defang ISIS, U.S. Targets Its Psychology

TIDE-HSV · Dec 30, 2014

Nagata is correct in that we've not really seen anything like it in our lifetimes. In fact, I'm not sure we've seen anything like it since the opening sweep of Islam...

Tidewater · Dec 30, 2014

TIDE-HSV said:
Nagata is correct in that we've noby the bushel.t really seen anything like it in our lifetimes. In fact, I'm not sure we've seen anything like it since the opening sweep of Islam...

A lot of people (including Nagata) are worried about the muslims from western countries that are going to Iraq & Syria to fight, then coming back to their adopted western countries.
I'm not that concerned, since they are most likely to return if they become disillusioned with islamic radicalism.
On the other hand, while they are in Iraq & Syria, it is a lot easier to kill them.

gmart74 · Dec 30, 2014

Tidewater said:
A lot of people (including Nagata) are worried about the muslims from western countries that are going to Iraq & Syria to fight, then coming back to their adopted western countries.
I'm not that concerned, since they are most likely to return if they become disillusioned with islamic radicalism.
On the other hand, while they are in Iraq & Syria, it is a lot easier to kill them.

UK is having a huge issue with radicals returning and they are not disillusioned in any way. They are going to have tremendous problems with terrorism in the near future.

Tidewater · Dec 30, 2014

gmart74 said:
UK is having a huge issue with radicals returning and they are not disillusioned in any way. They are going to have tremendous problems with terrorism in the near future.

The maybe we could encourage them to stay in the Islamic paradise that is the Islamic State and deliver them some ordnance.

Displaced Bama Fan · Dec 30, 2014

gmart74 said:
UK is having a huge issue with radicals returning and they are not disillusioned in any way. They are going to have tremendous problems with terrorism in the near future.

Delete

Tidewater · Dec 30, 2014

I realize killing US citizens abroad is problematical.
I believe if the United States government issues an statement that the United States is engaging in combat operations against ISIS and order all US citizens out of areas controlled by ISIS (specifically Iraq and Syria) on pain of death, then the moral, and I would argue legal, hurdles are cleared.
Maybe we should not target US citizens in ISIS-controlled areas, but we should target ISIS radicals and if any US citizens get killed in combat ops against ISIS, tough luck for them. The presence of US citizens in ISIS-controlled areas is prima facie evidence that their loyalty to ISIS supersedes their loyalty to the US.

RhodeIslandRed · Dec 30, 2014

Could this be what Nagata is referring to, the psychological appeal that ISIS affords to both Middle-easterners as well as Westerners? They seem well supplied and well armed, almost like a professional army.

TIDE-HSV · Dec 30, 2014

Tidewater said:
A lot of people (including Nagata) are worried about the muslims from western countries that are going to Iraq & Syria to fight, then coming back to their adopted western countries.
I'm not that concerned, since they are most likely to return if they become disillusioned with islamic radicalism.
On the other hand, while they are in Iraq & Syria, it is a lot easier to kill them.

Well, it only takes a few to make a real mess. I agree with Gmart that Britain has a much larger problem than we do. I think that what Nagata is referring to is the unholy combination of ideology which appeals to .01% of the population, captured military and national resource assets and a vision of a newborn holy land. It's a new game...

Tidewater · Dec 30, 2014

TIDE-HSV said:
Well, it only takes a few to make a real mess. I agree with Gmart that Britain has a much larger problem than we do. I think that what Nagata is referring to is the unholy combination of ideology which appeals to .01% of the population, captured military and national resource assets and a vision of a newborn holy land. It's a new game...

All very true. The world is different now than it was during the first islamic wave in the 600s AD. The West is not the exhausted backwards place Europe was in 650. The Byzantines and Sassanid Persians had worn themselves out fighting each other, and there was no western Roman Empire, just a giant power vacuum where it used to be.
My one consolation is that, if it comes down to a fight to the death between the West and the muslims, I have no doubt whatsoever which side would win that. I have spent too much time with muslims to have any doubt. The greatest protector of muslims lives around the world in western (Christian) restraint. Only muslims can undermine that restraint, and if they do, westerners can be every bit as vicious as islamic radicals. And we are much more effective than muslims. At just about everything. Including killing.
And I really hope it does not come to that.

TIDE-HSV · Dec 30, 2014

Tidewater said:
All very true. The world is different now than it was during the first islamic wave in the 600s AD. The West is not the exhausted backwards place Europe was in 650.
My one consolation is that, if it comes down to a fight to the death between the West and the muslims, I have no doubt whatsoever which side would win that. I have spent too much time with muslims to have any doubt. The greatest protector of muslims lives around the world in western (Christian) restraint. Only muslims can undermine that restraint, and if they do, westerners can be every bit as vicious as islamic radicals. And we are much more effective than muslims. At just about everything. Including killing.

We'll never really know until the crap really hits the fan. Perhaps we've civilized ourselves out of setting out Muslim heads on pikes. I really feel sorry for the non-violent population we have around here, who just want to be left alone. They're tainted with the brush of Whahabism, whether they want it or not...

TideEngineer08 · Dec 30, 2014

TIDE-HSV said:
We'll never really know until the crap really hits the fan. Perhaps we've civilized ourselves out of setting out Muslim heads on pikes. I really feel sorry for the non-violent population we have around here, who just want to be left alone. They're tainted with the brush of Whahabism, whether they want it or not...

I would have no problem wiping them off the face of the earth, by whatever means necessary. I do not view them as human at all; in fact I view them as being beneath a rabid animal. (I'm referring specifically to ISIS). But I do fear, like you, that too many westerners have become far too pacifist and withdrawn from reality. They want their tv shows, fast food, and all their other comforts long since taken for granted and to just be left alone. My SIL's boyfriend is British and this topic came up during our Christmas family get-together. He is a staunch liberal and when it was suggested that England was being overrun with radical muslims he would have none of it and let us know that we were all paranoid fools who had been brainwashed by Fox News.

Tidewater · Dec 30, 2014

RhodeIslandRed said:
Could this be what Nagata is referring to, the psychological appeal that ISIS affords to both Middle-easterners as well as Westerners? They seem well supplied and well armed, almost like a professional army.

Interesting. I'd bet that the majority of the people from western countries that have moved to ISIS-controlled areas are of Middle Eastern descent or were raised muslim. There are probably a few westerners who have converted and moved to ISIS to show they are "more Catholic than the Pope," so to speak.
As for funding, I believe that ISIS funding comes from oil sales or "take your radicalism elsewhere" bribe money from "friendly" oil sheikhs.

Displaced Bama Fan · Dec 30, 2014

I'm not sure Muslims understand civility. They play the part until they get the numbers then their tune changes. We are sheep waiting to be slaughtered. Well, not all, but most.

Displaced Bama Fan · Dec 30, 2014

TideEngineer08 said:
I would have no problem wiping them off the face of the earth, by whatever means necessary. I do not view them as human at all; in fact I view them as being beneath a rabid animal. (I'm referring specifically to ISIS). But I do fear, like you, that too many westerners have become far too pacifist and withdrawn from reality. They want their tv shows, fast food, and all their other comforts long since taken for granted and to just be left alone. My SIL's boyfriend is British and this topic came up during our Christmas family get-together. He is a staunch liberal and when it was suggested that England was being overrun with radical muslims he would have none of it and let us know that we were all paranoid fools who had been brainwashed by Fox News.

Can we espouse those views?

TIDE-HSV · Dec 31, 2014

Displaced Bama Fan said:
Can we espouse those views?

One of the beauties of western democracy, well, at least the American and British varieties, is that you can espouse just about any view on earth without fear of prison...

Displaced Bama Fan · Dec 31, 2014

TIDE-HSV said:
One of the beauties of western democracy, well, at least the American and British varieties, is that you can espouse just about any view on earth without fear of prison...

That doesn't always translate to TF however. That's why I was asking.

RhodeIslandRed · Dec 31, 2014

Tidewater said:
Interesting. I'd bet that the majority of the people from western countries that have moved to ISIS-controlled areas are of Middle Eastern descent or were raised muslim. There are probably a few westerners who have converted and moved to ISIS to show they are "more Catholic than the Pope," so to speak.
As for funding, I believe that ISIS funding comes from oil sales or "take your radicalism elsewhere" bribe money from "friendly" oil sheikhs.

Many theories running around. That's why I brought it up. Many things just don't make sense.

The Effort to Understand ISIS (so we can kill them better)

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