Are coaches Saban and Smart outsmarting themselves on defense?

jcabama · Jan 3, 2015

Note lots of calls here for CJ type backers but can only remember a handful of LBs in my nearly 50years of watching football that whipped off to the NFL and made the all-PRO team their first year as the QB of the defense on a playoff team so while I heartily agree--I think it might be asking a bit much of even college football's best recruiter and developer of talent to have one of those every year! I also agree it's a shame to leave those 4-5 star players on the bench but last I saw they generally call a penalty when you try to put more than eleven of them on the field at a time. Maybe we should be more generous and share a few of them in each year's class with Urby or Gus! Would leave more time for the others to play for us for sure! What think!

Bamabuzzard · Jan 3, 2015

jcabama said:
Note lots of calls here for CJ type backers but can only remember a handful of LBs in my nearly 50years of watching football that whipped off to the NFL and made the all-PRO team their first year as the QB of the defense on a playoff team so while I heartily agree--I think it might be asking a bit much of even college football's best recruiter and developer of talent to have one of those every year! I also agree it's a shame to leave those 4-5 star players on the bench but last I saw they generally call a penalty when you try to put more than eleven of them on the field at a time. Maybe we should be more generous and share a few of them in each year's class with Urby or Gus! Would leave more time for the others to play for us for sure! What think!

Part of the problem is CNS's defense is very hard to learn. Add that to the fact that he doesnt allow players to see the field until they meet his criteria of being ready. So we got guys sitting on the bench that would have long been on the field in most places.

CrimsonForce · Jan 3, 2015

I would rather run a more simplified defense and have our best athletes/players on the field rather than run a very complex defense that takes several years for most players to learn which in turn leaves a lot of your best athletes on the bench. /end run on sentence..

CrimSonami · Jan 3, 2015

TideFan in AU said:
Wuuuuut??? You're watching football?? I thought we were all supposed to write off football for the rest of the year and pout!

I watched Tennessee play yesterday and Florida play today, but don't tell anybody, ok?

Really! You're watching other teams play football!!! Please turn in your Bama card!

DzynKingRTR · Jan 3, 2015

Bamaro said:
The Ravens (Mosley, Upshaw, Cody) are playing later so I'm in. (too bad Ro took so long to get his head together)

Go Ravens! Boo Steelers. Cannot stand the Steelers QB. Pretty much the same guy as Winston.

jcabama · Jan 3, 2015

Bamabuzzard said:
Part of the problem is CNS's defense is very hard to learn. Add that to the fact that he doesnt allow players to see the field until they meet his criteria of being ready. So we got guys sitting on the bench that would have long been on the field in most places.

Not disagreeing but who would you sit? That's the dillema and bounty of having top rated classes every year--not enough footballs/snaps/tackles to go around for these "best" players.

teamplayer · Jan 3, 2015

DzynKingRTR said:
Go Ravens! Boo Steelers. Cannot stand the Steelers QB. Pretty much the same guy as Winston.

Yeah, and the way the Ravens backed Ray Lewis was any different? There are plenty of criminals to go around in the NFL and college football. The powers that be long ago decided to win at all costs instead of doing what is right and rewarding the good guys who also play the game. The game would be so much better off without the thug criminals, but then ESPN would lose half of their headlines and talking points.

DzynKingRTR · Jan 3, 2015

teamplayer said:
Yeah, and the way the Ravens backed Ray Lewis was any different? There are plenty of criminals to go around in the NFL and college football. The powers that be long ago decided to win at all costs instead of doing what is right and rewarding the good guys who also play the game. The game would be so much better off without the thug criminals, but then ESPN would lose half of their headlines and talking points.

Lewis isn't playing anymore and there are a bunch of bama players on the Ravens and zero Bama players on the Steelers

BamaMTA06 · Jan 3, 2015

I say yes we are if we have better players on the bench because they have not fully grasped the complex nature of Saban's defense and they can do a better job than current players if we simplify the defense.

I'm just a CPA, but maybe the defensive philosophy we are currently using is no longer the best philosophy for the offensive game plan the better teams are using. We adjusted our defensive line rotation. Maybe it's time to do the same with the back seven.

Bamabuzzard · Jan 3, 2015

jcabama said:
Not disagreeing but who would you sit? That's the dillema and bounty of having top rated classes every year--not enough footballs/snaps/tackles to go around for these "best" players.

Its not about sitting anyone, its about getting on the field, in the rotation and contributing. The mental part of the learning the defense keeps many players off the field.

Bama-94-00 · Jan 3, 2015

I say the team mainly needs some changes to the Def. schemes and better pass covering LBers and Safeties.

GreatDanish · Jan 3, 2015

Below are our scoring defense each year since 2008, our national and conference rank, and the last stat is the nation's best scoring defense's average points allowed.

2008: 14.29 ppg (#7 nationally, #2 in the SEC) - 9.0
2009: 11.71 ppg (#2 nationally, #1 in the SEC) - 10.4
2010: 13.54 ppg (#3 nationally, #1 in the SEC) - 12.0
2011: 8.15 ppg (#1 nationally, #1 in the SEC) - 8.15
2012: 10.93 ppg (#1 nationally, #1 in the SEC) - 10.9
2013: 13.9 ppg (#4 nationally, #1 in the SEC) - 12.1
2014: 18.4 ppg (#6 nationally, #3 in the SEC) - 16.0

Two primary observations.
1. The nation's best scoring defense in 2014 allowed close to twice as many as the nation's best scoring defense in 2008 (and 2011, for that matter). An elite scoring defense was holding teams to 10 ppg or so each season. In 2012, the number was slightly higher than normal. But in 2014, no one is holding teams to near 10 ppg. So, it's not just us. Everyone is allowing more ppg.
2. Our relative rank in 2014 was below our typical rank, but we are still in the top tier of defenses in the country. It's been noted that we lacked "star power" on our defense in 2014 and we definitely lacked experience in the secondary. So, it shouldn't be even remotely surprising that our ranks were lower. I mean, it's pretty dang impressive that we had such an inexperienced defense and still finished ranked #6 in the nation.

I still think we're overthinking it. We were young and our backfield was a step down in terms of talent. The general trend in CFB is toward more scoring. Combine these two factors and it would be unreasonable to expect us to be holding opponents to fewer than 14 ppg like we have in the past.

jcabama · Jan 3, 2015

BamaMTA06 said:
I say yes we are if we have better players on the bench because they have not fully grasped the complex nature of Saban's defense and they can do a better job than current players if we simplify the defense.

I'm just a CPA, but maybe the defensive philosophy we are currently using is no longer the best philosophy for the offensive game plan the better teams are using. We adjusted our defensive line rotation. Maybe it's time to do the same with the back seven.[/QUOTE

I think it could readily be argued that just about every kid we have on the team would be at least a starter and perhaps a star at two-thirds of the FBS schools. our coaches value discipline as much as talent and for 8 years it's worked out well. Maybe we should simplify but my point remains that the same kids would still probably be starting. Everyone loves the backup QB when the team stumbles. Next year we start again and I already like our chances thanks to the coaching staff and kids we have and will get! RTR!!_smile:

JustNeedMe81 · Jan 3, 2015

I really don't care about stats number...I don't care about what could've, should've been,all of that mess. I simply do not care. CNS will probably bring a defensive guru in the off season, and figure out a way to change some things. Only this time Kirby and CNS will team up with someone in NFL, probably Patriot staff...Who knows..I definitely will look for CNS to make a hire in a support staff role... There will lot of new looks next year mixed with what was working this year. Have faith, and enjoy your off season. See ya'll at Spring game.

bama579 · Jan 3, 2015

GreatDanish said:
Below are our scoring defense each year since 2008, our national and conference rank, and the last stat is the nation's best scoring defense's average points allowed.

2008: 14.29 ppg (#7 nationally, #2 in the SEC) - 9.0
2009: 11.71 ppg (#2 nationally, #1 in the SEC) - 10.4
2010: 13.54 ppg (#3 nationally, #1 in the SEC) - 12.0
2011: 8.15 ppg (#1 nationally, #1 in the SEC) - 8.15
2012: 10.93 ppg (#1 nationally, #1 in the SEC) - 10.9
2013: 13.9 ppg (#4 nationally, #1 in the SEC) - 12.1
2014: 18.4 ppg (#6 nationally, #3 in the SEC) - 16.0

Two primary observations.
1. The nation's best scoring defense in 2014 allowed close to twice as many as the nation's best scoring defense in 2008 (and 2011, for that matter). An elite scoring defense was holding teams to 10 ppg or so each season. In 2012, the number was slightly higher than normal. But in 2014, no one is holding teams to near 10 ppg. So, it's not just us. Everyone is allowing more ppg.
2. Our relative rank in 2014 was below our typical rank, but we are still in the top tier of defenses in the country. It's been noted that we lacked "star power" on our defense in 2014 and we definitely lacked experience in the secondary. So, it shouldn't be even remotely surprising that our ranks were lower. I mean, it's pretty dang impressive that we had such an inexperienced defense and still finished ranked #6 in the nation.

I still think we're overthinking it. We were young and our backfield was a step down in terms of talent. The general trend in CFB is toward more scoring. Combine these two factors and it would be unreasonable to expect us to be holding opponents to fewer than 14 ppg like we have in the past.

Outstanding post. Take a bow.

TideMan09 · Jan 3, 2015

I wish we would get back to becoming a hard nose, punish D's we play, with a strong running game, to help the D make other teams "... Quit" when we play them..We've slowly but surely have become more of a finesse offense..That throws 1st instead of coming out with a strong running game, that wears D's down by the 4th quarter with a strong running game, that helps our D out, by keeping other teams offense on the sideline with our time consuming punishing running game..That's how Bama has won soooo many NC's over the years & I honestly feel like we've steadily shied away from that combo on offense & defense, that wins the LOS on both sides of the ball, I truly wish we would go back to that on offense..Cause it's worked so well for Bama over the years having a strong running game that compliments our D & helps win the LOS on both sides of the ball..What's that old saying.."If It's Not Broke..Don't Fix It"..

bama579 · Jan 3, 2015

^^
Consider the possibility that our coaches thought we didn't have the O line and and possibly even the running backs to rely on a run-heavy offense.

JustNeedMe81 · Jan 3, 2015

It's hard to do that with the tempo offense we're facing these days... real hard.

TideMan09 said:
I wish we would get back to becoming a hard nose, punish D's we play, with a strong running game, to help the D make other teams "... Quit" when we play them..We've slowly but surely have become more of a finesse offense..That throws 1st instead of coming out with a strong running game, that wears D's down by the 4th quarter with a strong running game, that helps our D out, by keeping other teams offense on the sideline with our time consuming punishing running game..That's how Bama has won soooo many NC's over the years & I honestly feel like we've steadily shied away from that combo on offense & defense, that wins the LOS on both sides of the ball, I truly wish we would go back to that on offense..Cause it's worked so well for Bama over the years having a strong running game that compliments our D & helps win the LOS on both sides of the ball..What's that old saying.."If It's Not Broke..Don't Fix It"..

rgw · Jan 3, 2015

Our biggest problems this year weren't tempo. Look at the Auburn and OSU tape closely...it wasn't the tempo that got us, it was bad coverage on the backend typically when these teams were huddling up.

I don't buy the tempo issues, I don't think they exist as much as in prior seasons. It was just straight up technical aspects of covering WRs and DBs making plays on the ball while on an island.

nickel42 · Jan 3, 2015

I'd argue that tempo has not been the reason for our struggles this year.

Edit: rgw, you beat me to it. Great minds

Are coaches Saban and Smart outsmarting themselves on defense?

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