Question: If we had an "elite" QB would Saban "turn him loose"?

Bamabuzzard · Jan 9, 2015

McElroy, McCarron, Sims. All very good quarterbacks for the university and two of the three accounted for three national titles since 2009. But none of these three were "Elite" quarterbacks. Meaning that rare breed of QB (Tebow, Manziel, Mariato, Luck, P. Manning, Newton) that could put a team on their backs and light up the score board. But I wonder if we had one would CNS "turn him loose" and not have him fit so much into "the system"? Granted, these elite qb's aren't easy to find and most teams never get one. But it would be nice to see what our team could do if we had one.

RTR91 · Jan 9, 2015

I want to say yes, but the more I watch our offenses I get the feeling the answer is a resounding...

BAMAVILLE · Jan 9, 2015

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but Saban's approach has been to "protect the ball" on offense meaning play smart and get points out of each possession and allow the defense to "stop the ball" meaning hold the opponent to as few points as possible. He really doesn't have the "outscore the opponent" philosophy which you see more QBs being turned loose and doing their thing. BUT I think he would "turn a QB lose" as long as they prove that they can make smart decisions in protecting the ball. The issue is we are just now recruiting that kind of QB talent that can be an effective pocket passer AND a playmaker with their feet.

tungi01 · Jan 9, 2015

We will find out soon. That elite dual-threat type QB is an early enrollee(Blake Barnett). I could be wrong but I don't think Saban will completely turn him loose...

fundytide · Jan 9, 2015

Four of those six non-Bama guys you mentioned (Manziel, Mariota, Manning, Luck) never won a national championship. Arguably, each of them- as good as they were/are- did not do enough to get their team to that level. Two of our three guys won a National Championship and the other won an SECCG. I can recall at least one drive that each of our guys led in critical, big game circumstances when they were 'elite' in both leadership, execution and will. And our three have been class acts on and off the field. I'd gladly take more of what we've been lucky to have at QB over the past seven years.

Bamabuzzard · Jan 9, 2015

fundytide said:
Four of those six non-Bama guys you mentioned (Manziel, Mariota, Manning, Luck) never won a national championship. Arguably, each of them- as good as they were/are- did not do enough to get their team to that level. Two of our three guys won a National Championship and the other won an SECCG. I can recall at least one drive that each of our guys led in critical, big game circumstances when they were 'elite' in both leadership, execution and will. And our three have been class acts on and off the field. I'd gladly take more of what we've been lucky to have at QB over the past seven years.

Because one person normally doesn't win a title and I think you're missing the point of the thread.

fundytide · Jan 9, 2015

I don't think I am. I agree with you that one person doesn't win a championship- ever- although some dominate play on an on-going basis. But one could argue that if the offensive 'system' encouraged it, each of our three guys might very well have been 'elite' in the way you suggest. The corollary is that maybe other six wouldn't have been as 'elite' as they were if they were operating in a different system from one that put a lot of emphasis on their individual performance.

Personally, I doubt very much that Coach Saban and Kiffin run an offense that moves in that direction at the expense of ball control, balance and diversity in attack. And if they did so with what we considered an 'elite QB', personally, I wouldn't be too enthused about it because it can encourage some guys to get a big head. The kind of team chemistry we had this past year would have been harder to achieve under those circumstances.

B1GTide · Jan 9, 2015

I think that it depends on what you mean by "turn him loose". Will he ever let a player throw the ball up on a prayer like Manziel did? No. Not even if it worked. Manziel would have been on the bench for Saban if he threw the ball up like that as often as he did at aTm. The difference - aTm needed to take chances and Saban believes that Alabama is good enough to win without taking chances.

However, if you mean "turn him loose" the way that Luck was allowed to play at Stanford or the way that the USC QBs were allowed to play under Pete Carroll I would answer differently. Those QBs carried their respective offenses, even with amazing RBs in the backfield. But they could be trusted not to put the ball in dangerous spots.

With Saban I think that it has become less about clock managemnt and more about scoring, but he wants to minimize risk while doing so. What does that mean in today's game? I am not sure, and I think that Saban is trying to figure that out.

Bamabuzzard · Jan 9, 2015

fundytide said:
I don't think I am. I agree with you that one person doesn't win a championship- ever- although some dominate play on an on-going basis. But one could argue that if the offensive 'system' encouraged it, each of our three guys might very well have been 'elite' in the way you suggest. The corollary is that maybe other six wouldn't have been as 'elite' as they were if they were operating in a different system from one that put a lot of emphasis on their individual performance.

Personally, I doubt very much that Coach Saban and Kiffin run an offense that moves in that direction at the *expense of ball control, balance and diversity in attack. And if they did so with what we considered an 'elite QB', personally, I wouldn't be too enthused about it because it can encourage some guys to get a big head. The kind of team chemistry we had this past year would have been harder to achieve under those circumstances.

'

Okay I'll go this direction for the sake discussion.

And I suggest that at the expense of winning some games we have put more emphasis on ball control, balance and diversity rather than simply letting our athletes play. Look no further than the Sugar Bowl. Derrick Henry was averaging 7.5 yards/carry and ended up running the ball 13 times all game. As great as CNS is and lord I wouldn't trade him for anyone else. One of his flaws seems to be that sometimes he tries to stick to the "system" and let his "system" win games (which it has done, don't get me wrong) rather than turning loose some of his thoroughbreds when they've had the hot hand.

Chukker Veteran · Jan 9, 2015

Buzzard, you ask a good question. We won't know the answer until we see what he does when he has one. Maybe one of the younger guys we have now will turn out to be at that level, maybe not.

Matt0424 · Jan 9, 2015

I think I will play "devil's advocate" (if you can be in this convo) and say yes. The reason being, is look at this year. Blake Sims was as close to "turned loose" as a QB could be, and he's not an elite player. They let him do things a lot of people thought he couldn't, and he proved most of his naysayers wrong. I think with an elite guy at QB, we'd see a bit more free reign.

Some people have been saying no on the basis of the turnovers typically associated with a QB being let loose, and that can be a real problem (look at Jameis this year)...but if you get a once in a lifetime kid like Andrew Luck you can turn him loose and still protect the ball really well.

Also, to the above poster who spoke of the ones NOT winning titles. Two of those guys CARRIED their teams to well above what they would have done (Manziel and Luck), one is arguably the best QB of all time and was one win away from a chance at a NC (Manning), and the final one is playing for the title this year (Mariota).

Go Bama · Jan 9, 2015

Yeah, I think he'd turn him loose. They turned Amari loose this year. I believe the coaching staff will exploit whatever talent is at their disposal.

That being said, I wish Henry would have gotten the ball more in the Sugar Bowl. But that was just one game.

Bamabuzzard · Jan 9, 2015

Chukker Veteran said:
Buzzard, you ask a good question. We won't know the answer until we see what he does when he has one. Maybe one of the younger guys we have now will turn out to be at that level, maybe not.

I've listened to coaches who've coached these special type athletes and you hear the same things from them. That there are times when you have to let them play. Like Manziel. With any other qb Sumlin would have had a tighter rope and kept within his system as usual. But with a player like Manziel. He tweaked the offense to play toward Manziel's strengths. Even if it meant not going exactly by his offensive system. That's what I'm talking about. If we ever get a kid in here who is an elite passer. Would CNS not be so rigid about "going by the system" to allow the kid's passing talents to be maximized?

RTR91 · Jan 9, 2015

I say no for the simple reason our offenses have continued to get in the same funk in every big game. The 2014 offense didn't appear on October 4 and January 1. The rest of the season was pretty much the same offense except for those two days. It's not just this year, either. Seems like the offense goes away from the game plan and goes very vanilla in the bigger games no matter the OC.

Players and assistants can say Saban doesn't hold anything back, but the product on the field suggests otherwise.

TideEngineer08 · Jan 9, 2015

I guess it remains to be seen. I noticed another poster that talked about how Saban wants his QB to protect the ball so as not to screw it up for the defense. The problem is, his defense has been hacked over the last few years and we can no longer afford to play conservative with a lead. It used to be that a 21-6 lead was a death sentence for any team. We would simply squeeze the life out of the ball, drain the clock, and choke the opposing team to death. That is no longer the case.

I think going forward this is the biggest adjustment that must be made.

fundytide · Jan 9, 2015

I'm inclined to agree with you about that- the stubborness in conceptual approach sometimes overriding practical reality. I'm not sure what to think this past year since Coach Saban has said in the media that he has 'wanted to open up the offense more' (paraphrasing) than we have in previous years. And he said after the Sugar Bowl that he 'thought we should have thrown the ball deep a bit more in the second quarter'. Those comments suggest to me that he has really let Coach Kiffin run the offense.

As for Derrick Henry in the Sugar Bowl- I couldn't agree more. I watched the first half again last night for the first time since Jan 1st and I cannot understand why we stopped running Henry over LT. I didn't see anything that OSU did defensively to take that away- they kept the bracket on Cooper and that provided the opportunity for us to run left. IF we had kept doing it, they would eventually have had to bring down a safety to try to take it away and then Cooper et al would have had more room to operate.

IIRC, there were only two runs in the first half that were not successful for us- one when Henry tripped over an OL changing direction at the LOS and one when Vogler whiffed on a double block on Bosa and Yeldon had no crease to get the three yards we needed on third down. Otherwise we ran all over OSU early.

I'm a big believer in 'taking what the defense gives you' until they take it away and give you something else- then take that. Hence, being balanced and diverse in controlling the ball that way.

Bamabuzzard · Jan 9, 2015

RTR91 said:
I say no for the simple reason our offenses have continued to get in the same funk in every big game. The 2014 offense didn't appear on October 4 and January 1. The rest of the season was pretty much the same offense except for those two days. It's not just this year, either. Seems like the offense goes away from the game plan and goes very vanilla in the bigger games no matter the OC.

Players and assistants can say Saban doesn't hold anything back, but the product on the field suggests otherwise.

1000% in agreement.

Bamaro · Jan 9, 2015

IMO, he would "turn him loose" with his arm but not with his legs.

fundytide · Jan 9, 2015

Weren't both McElroy and McCarron considered elite passers when they came to Bama? I'm pretty sure that McElroy was anyway and I think McCarron might have been too but I'm not sure about that.

bamaslammer · Jan 9, 2015

I don't think we've had an elite talent at QB since Richard Todd. These guys are very rare. Half the NFL teams are looking for one and can't find them. If we ever find a guy that can read a defense quickly, figure out who's the open guy and actually hit the guy accurately there is no way we would not let that guy play. Would we throw it 40 times a game? heck no, why would any team do that unless they were playing from behind.

The only QB who ever attempted more passes in a season at Alabama than Blake Sims did this year was JP Wilson in 2007 and that's because we were behind all the time. and Sims is by no means and elite QB.

Question: If we had an "elite" QB would Saban "turn him loose"?

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