Question: If we had an "elite" QB would Saban "turn him loose"?

fundytide said:

Weren't both McElroy and McCarron considered elite passers when they came to Bama? I'm pretty sure that McElroy was anyway and I think McCarron might have been too but I'm not sure about that.

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Greg was a 3* on Rivals. Not what I would consider an "elite passer."

Sheesh. Really? For some reason I remember it being considered a really big catch in recruiting that we got him out of Texas. If he was only a three star, I wonder why.

fundytide said:

Sheesh. Really? For some reason I remember it being considered a really big catch in recruiting that we got him out of Texas. If he was only a three star, I wonder why.

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I think he was committed to Texas Tech and we flipped him when Tebow committed to FL... but I don't really keep up with recruiting all that much.

No way Sugar Ray.

Yeah all the attention was really on Tebow when we were after Greg. I suppose folks were excited to get him since he did so well at Southlake Carroll.

fundytide said:

I'm inclined to agree with you about that- the stubborness in conceptual approach sometimes overriding practical reality. I'm not sure what to think this past year since Coach Saban has said in the media that he has 'wanted to open up the offense more' (paraphrasing) than we have in previous years. And he said after the Sugar Bowl that he 'thought we should have thrown the ball deep a bit more in the second quarter'. Those comments suggest to me that he has really let Coach Kiffin run the offense.

As for Derrick Henry in the Sugar Bowl- I couldn't agree more. I watched the first half again last night for the first time since Jan 1st and I cannot understand why we stopped running Henry over LT. I didn't see anything that OSU did defensively to take that away- they kept the bracket on Cooper and that provided the opportunity for us to run left. IF we had kept doing it, they would eventually have had to bring down a safety to try to take it away and then Cooper et al would have had more room to operate.

IIRC, there were only two runs in the first half that were not successful for us- one when Henry tripped over an OL changing direction at the LOS and one when Vogler whiffed on a double block on Bosa and Yeldon had no crease to get the three yards we needed on third down. Otherwise we ran all over OSU early.

I'm a big believer in 'taking what the defense gives you' until they take it away and give you something else- then take that. Hence, being balanced and diverse in controlling the ball that way.

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You have to wonder if Coach Kiffin and Coach Saban, at some point since the Sugar Bowl, haven`t looked at each other and said, "Damn, we did we stop running Henry off tackle until they stopped it?"

Tideflyer said:

You have to wonder if Coach Kiffin and Coach Saban, at some point since the Sugar Bowl, haven`t looked at each other and said, "Damn, we did we stop running Henry off tackle until they stopped it?"

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Sorry, "we" should be "why"

I get what your saying, but I don't agree with your assessment that AJ was not elite and was not turned loose.

AJ was one of the top rated pro-style QBs coming out of high school. Saban trusted him enough that towards the end of his career, he was audibling plays at the line based on what the defense gave him (turned him loose). For his carer he completed 67% of his passes, had a 5/1 TD/INT ratio and had QB ratings that led near tops in the NCAA.

Statistically, outside of yards he's similar to all the guys you mention.

Maybe he didn't have the yards or the one memorable play or game, but in terms of his ability to put the ball where it needed to be, understand defenses, make reads, not kill his team and flat out win games, I'd categorize him as elite.

I wish Brodie Croyle had of had a coach that inspired him to stretch and work hard to reach his full potential.

tidefanbeezer said:

I get what your saying, but I don't agree with your assessment that AJ was not elite and was not turned loose.

AJ was one of the top rated pro-style QBs coming out of high school. Saban trusted him enough that towards the end of his career, he was audibling plays at the line based on what the defense gave him (turned him loose). For his carer he completed 67% of his passes, had a 5/1 TD/INT ratio and had QB ratings that led near tops in the NCAA.

Statistically, outside of yards he's similar to all the guys you mention.

Maybe he didn't have the yards or the one memorable play or game, but in terms of his ability to put the ball where it needed to be, understand defenses, make reads, not kill his team and flat out win games, I'd categorize him as elite.

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I thought something similar about AJ and I'll take it a step further. AJ COULD have been a gun slinger if CNS and the "old" system would have allowed him to be.

AJ might not have had the strongest of arms or the fastest feet be he could make all the throws and his feet were above average.

Now, here we are when arguably we are "changing offensive philosophies" in the light of needing to score more points rather than control the clock and I think if CNS had AJ back right now we would probably see AJ be more of the "gun slinger" he was rumored to be.

Going forward, as an earlier poster said, I'd put my money on Blake Barnett being this type of player for CNS in a year or two.

I don't think it is in his makeup to turn any qb loose. he wants balance, and a defense that can control the opponents offense. I think blake sims was exposed a lot by ohio st. his security blanket all season was cooper. the last game showed that denying cooper any deep balls would cause problems. it did. interceptions, missed touchdowns especially the one to howard lost in the end zone on a scramble play. yes, coach saban always said do not allow the big plays. well this year it was the year of the big play. defense wins titles. plus, several occasions, when we were running at will with our left side off line we switched to the right. henry 11 carries left side 9 yards avg per carry.

Bamabuzzard said:

McElroy, McCarron, Sims. All very good quarterbacks for the university and two of the three accounted for three national titles since 2009. But none of these three were "Elite" quarterbacks. Meaning that rare breed of QB (Tebow, Manziel, Mariato, Luck, P. Manning, Newton) that could put a team on their backs and light up the score board. But I wonder if we had one would CNS "turn him loose" and not have him fit so much into "the system"? Granted, these elite qb's aren't easy to find and most teams never get one. But it would be nice to see what our team could do if we had one.

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I think it depends on the person:

Tebow - quite possibly
Manziel - maybe not
Mariota - yes
Luck - yes
P. Manning - yes
Newton - maybe

...figured someone would argue that we've had "elite" QBs already, and I think some of those arguments are OK and valid for discussion. I think to get what the OP is asking you have to think about his question with respect to QBs that are a step above "elite", whatever you would call that. Think "Transcendent". Manziel and Tebow were transcendent college players (no statement made or intended about their professional careers). The Mannings (both of them, really), Cam Newton (ugh), Andrew Luck, etc... all the same. These are all guys that you build a program/system around... not ones that you fit into your existing program/system. They're all a notch above Elite. Maybe Transcendent isn't the correct term, but it's all that I can come up with.

I get what the OP is asking, and I do not believe we've had a QB in my 40+ year lifetime who is in this category. There aren't many around. There isn't necessarily one in the country each year. I hope we have one or two on our roster right now!! I'd really enjoy seeing that.

Maybe my statement above is another way of asking the OP's question... if a QB were talented enough, would Coach Saban change his system to accommodate the skillset of the QB? I think "yes"... look at Amari this year. He let CLK turn him loose.

I think the closest we've come was Brodie Croyle. With a different coach/staff/system (including strength training) I think he could have been really special. I have often thought that he could have put up some big numbers under Price, but we'll certainly never know.

Nope. It would be ceding too much control. CNS likes to be in control. No way he lets a 22 year old control the game.

The thing I would worry about in building a program around a transcendent QB is that this player is very likely gone after two years on the field and then the program needs a replica to be successful. From that perspective, I think I prefer a head coach with a clear philosophy/system and recruiting and coaching players and assistants to run it- with the caveat that this coach has some flexibility in approach to accommodate outstanding talent or a deficiency in talent. Is that what we have?

RTR91 said:

I say no for the simple reason our offenses have continued to get in the same funk in every big game. The 2014 offense didn't appear on October 4 and January 1. The rest of the season was pretty much the same offense except for those two days. It's not just this year, either. Seems like the offense goes away from the game plan and goes very vanilla in the bigger games no matter the OC.

Players and assistants can say Saban doesn't hold anything back, but the product on the field suggests otherwise.

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The offense struggled against LSU and Arkansas also. I haven't gone back and watched the games, I deleted them after the Sugar Bowl, but IIRC Arkansas actually won the game statistically and LSU was very close.

IMO, it has less to do with the coaches or whether or not it's a big game, and more to do with the talent level of the team, especially the defense, and just not having your "A" game all the time.

The coaching staff has shown flexibility. I have no reason to assume they wouldn't recognize the advantages of an elite QB.

Go Bama said:

The offense struggled against LSU and Arkansas also. I haven't gone back and watched the games, I deleted them after the Sugar Bowl, but IIRC Arkansas actually won the game statistically and LSU was very close.

IMO, it has less to do with the coaches or whether or not it's a big game, and more to do with the talent level of the team, especially the defense, and just not having your "A" game all the time.

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Arkansas - A rainy game with a brand new center against a team that had two weeks to prepare. That was just a lackluster performance for Alabama.

LSU - Fits the bill of what I'm saying. Outside of the last 30 minutes of the 2013 game, when has Alabama had a good offensive game plan against them?

The coaching staff has shown flexibility. I have no reason to assume they wouldn't recognize the advantages of an elite QB.

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I could agree with that if we had not stopped running the ball against Ohio State or Ole Miss. During the second quarter, Bama dominated Ole Miss by running that sweep to the left behind Cam. Didn't see it again the rest of the game. The same goes for the Ohio State game.

From Travis Reier's twitter account:

Running to his left against OSU, Derrick Henry carried seven times for 78 yards (11 ypc) and a touchdown.
Mix in Yeldon and Alabama RBs ran left 11 times for 101 yards (9.2 ypc) and a TD in the Sugar Bowl.

Why go against that? That type of coaching problem has become standard procedure.

RTR91 said:

Arkansas - A rainy game with a brand new center against a team that had two weeks to prepare. That was just a lackluster performance for Alabama.

LSU - Fits the bill of what I'm saying. Outside of the last 30 minutes of the 2013 game, when has Alabama had a good offensive game plan against them?



I could agree with that if we had not stopped running the ball against Ohio State or Ole Miss. During the second quarter, Bama dominated Ole Miss by running that sweep to the left behind Cam. Didn't see it again the rest of the game. The same goes for the Ohio State game.

From Travis Reier's twitter account:

Running to his left against OSU, Derrick Henry carried seven times for 78 yards (11 ypc) and a touchdown.
Mix in Yeldon and Alabama RBs ran left 11 times for 101 yards (9.2 ypc) and a TD in the Sugar Bowl.

Why go against that? That type of coaching problem has become standard procedure.

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I suspect CLK just didn't realize how consistently successful Henry was over LT. It's a mystery.

I get your point and understand your reasoning. I don't think this is an ego or control issue. The staff wants to win and I have the faith to believe they'll exploit talent.

I really hope Blake Barnett pans out to be the elite QB we're talking about and we can find out how the staff uses him. He looks to me like he's got a rifle on wheels.