Link: "The tragedy of the American military" from The Atlantic Monthly

bama579 · Jan 15, 2015

A long story in the Atlantic Monthly on the distance between the US military and its citizens caught my attention. The summary is that with so little of the country serving in the military, it has become more isolated form us, among other not-so-great things.

Lots of thought-provoking stuff in here. Hope you get as much out of it as I did.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-tragedy-of-the-american-military/383516/

Tidewater · Jan 15, 2015

bama579 said:
A long story in the Atlantic Monthly on the distance between the US military and its citizens caught my attention. The summary is that with so little of the country serving in the military, it has become more isolated form us, among other not-so-great things.

Lots of thought-provoking stuff in here. Hope you get as much out of it as I did.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-tragedy-of-the-american-military/383516/

We want our military to be from our society, but it has to be different from the society it protects. The military places demands on people that normal citizens would not and should not accept.
On the flip side, only a small minority of young men now meet the physical requirements to get into the military. This is not good in a republic.

I saw on a USMC dry-erase board: "People say America is at war. American isn't at war. The Marine Corps is at war. America is at the mall."

uafanataum · Jan 15, 2015

Very truthfilled article, but nothing will change.

jabcmb · Jan 15, 2015

Thanks, I would have missed the article had you not posted. He gives us a thoughtful premise and it's good he touched on the adequacy of the general officer leadership today. Still, the read is kind of hollow, there's no nuance of having smelled the diesel and cordite or the burn of canvas. And the author told us his background regarding the military. I guess there is no harm in basing an intellectual article on interested observation. Indeed, it is the majority of what informs us.

Tide1986 · May 25, 2015

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-warrior-main-20150524-story.html#page=1

"The last decade of war has affected the relationship between our society and the military," Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, wrote in a commentary in 2013. "As a nation, we've learned to separate the warrior from the war. But we still have much to learn about how to connect the warrior to the citizen.... We can't allow a sense of separation to grow between us."

Dempsey's comments reflect a growing concern in the military that reintegrating service members into communities whose understanding of war is gleaned largely from television may be as difficult as fighting the war.

"I am well-aware that many Americans, especially our elite classes, consider the military a bit like a guard dog," said Lt. Col. Remi M. Hajjar, a professor of behavioral sciences and leadership at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point.

"They are very thankful for our protection, but they probably wouldn't want to have it as a neighbor," he said. "And they certainly are not going to influence or inspire their own kids to join that pack of Rottweilers to protect America."

Bama Reb · May 25, 2015

Tidewater said:
We want our military to be from our society, but it has to be different from the society it protects. The military places demands on people that normal citizens would not and should not accept.
On the flip side, only a small minority of young men now meet the physical requirements to get into the military. This is not good in a republic.

I saw on a USMC dry-erase board: "People say America is at war. American isn't at war. The Marine Corps is at war. America is at the mall."

Agreed. The US military is, or is expected to be, continually prepared to wage war at a moment's notice. The American public expects that the military is prepared for this scenario, will handle it faithfully and that they themselves are free to engage in their everyday affairs.

crimsonaudio · May 25, 2015

Tidewater said:
I saw on a USMC dry-erase board: "People say America is at war. American isn't at war. The Marine Corps is at war. America is at the mall."

I've seen this statement floating around for years. It's true, and really, it ought to be.

I fully believe that if / when we ever face an enemy as powerful as we did in WWII, the people will respond to the war effort - the lackadaisical attitude often displayed by the general public is due primarily to the fact that we haven't been involved in a war that was for our very existence in 70 years - just lots of involvement in other parts of the world against (what should be) overmatched opponents.

TIDE-HSV · May 25, 2015

Tidewater said:
We want our military to be from our society, but it has to be different from the society it protects. The military places demands on people that normal citizens would not and should not accept.
On the flip side, only a small minority of young men now meet the physical requirements to get into the military. This is not good in a republic.

I saw on a USMC dry-erase board: "People say America is at war. American isn't at war. The Marine Corps is at war. America is at the mall."

Can you blame them, when the Supreme Commander is saying "Get down to Disney World in Florida. Take your families and enjoy life, the way we want it to be enjoyed." I still feel as many - that we should have been called to sacrifice, just as the soldiers were...

dvldog · May 25, 2015

Nothing new here. Largely taken for granted, underfunded and misunderstood. Still they serve.

Relayer · May 25, 2015

Tidewater said:
We want our military to be from our society, but it has to be different from the society it protects. The military places demands on people that normal citizens would not and should not accept.
On the flip side, only a small minority of young men now meet the physical requirements to get into the military. This is not good in a republic.

I saw on a USMC dry-erase board: "People say America is at war. American isn't at war. The Marine Corps is at war. America is at the mall."

Fairly true and, except for the physical condition part, I don't much have a problem with it.

Tidewater · May 25, 2015

crimsonaudio said:
I've seen this statement floating around for years. It's true, and really, it ought to be.

I fully believe that if / when we ever face an enemy as powerful as we did in WWII, the people will respond to the war effort - the lackadaisical attitude often displayed by the general public is due primarily to the fact that we haven't been involved in a war that was for our very existence in 70 years - just lots of involvement in other parts of the world against (what should be) overmatched opponents.

I am not nearly is sure that the United States of 2015 has one tenth of the resilience of the United States of 1940.
Kids then grew up saying the pledge of allegiance, and hearing what a wonderful country the United States are.
Now, kids grow up, many of hem never hearing the pledge of allegiance, and in school hearing how the United States was so awful to ___ (fill in your oppressed minority group here). It seems that way more Americans have their hands out, and have forgotten JFK's admonition. So many Americans are "owed" something. "I've got ADHD, give me a check!" "I'm a broke-butt, give me a check!" I just do not think kids are taught to love their country any more. They are more likely to have been taught to gripe about what a terrible place it is. Urkel, the anti-cheerleader-in-chief (whose wife was never "really proud of her country" until her babies' daddy won a primary election, she said) is part of the problem, but he is a symptom, not the disease himself.
We have couch potatoes that can kill zombies at an amazing clip in a video game, but would simply soil themselves if somebody shot at them in real life.
I just am not sure we would have the resilience we had in 1941. I believe if the Japanese had destroyed the entire Pacific Fleet on 7 December, the US still would have won. The US produced 120 aircraft carriers, for Pete's sake. There was almost no way the Japanese could have damaged the US enough to knock the US out of the war.
Nowadays, however, as One Second After, I fear, realistically depicted, Americans faced with a serious blow (one much more easily delivered than Pearl Harbor which required six aircraft carriers and a huge support fleet), Americans are pretty vulnerable and would likely fold pretty quickly.
Dostoevsky forecast this well: "In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us."
I believe we have sown the wind and I am afraid we are going to reap the whirlwind.
I could be wrong. I hope I never find out.

crimsonaudio · May 25, 2015

Tidewater said:
I am not nearly is sure that the United States of 2015 has one tenth of the resilience of the United States of 1940.

I get it - I'm an eternal optimist so I suppose by view is a bit rosier than reality. That said, we've had literally nothing to bring us together like WWII did, although 9/11 came close - and for a time after that we saw that same spirit awakened, albeit briefly.

Nowadays, however, as One Second After, I fear, realistically depicted, Americans faced with a serious blow (one much more easily delivered than Pearl Harbor which required six aircraft carriers and a huge support fleet), Americans are pretty vulnerable and would likely fold pretty quickly.

Terrifying book, I agree. And largely accurate, likely. But I think it also would have unfolded similarly 70 years ago - when humans (of any kind) are pressed with with own survival, teamwork and civility take the back seat to personal needs. WWII and One Second After are very different situations, imo. Both challenge the people, but WWII allowed people to focus on an exterior opponent, while OSE is about surviving in the face of people attacking you directly.

But again, I'm an eternal optimist...

Tidewater · May 25, 2015

crimsonaudio said:
I get it - I'm an eternal optimist so I suppose by view is a bit rosier than reality. That said, we've had literally nothing to bring us together like WWII did, although 9/11 came close - and for a time after that we saw that same spirit awakened, albeit briefly.

Terrifying book, I agree. And largely accurate, likely. But I think it also would have unfolded similarly 70 years ago - when humans (of any kind) are pressed with with own survival, teamwork and civility take the back seat to personal needs. WWII and One Second After are very different situations, imo. Both challenge the people, but WWII allowed people to focus on an exterior opponent, while OSE is about surviving in the face of people attacking you directly.

But again, I'm an eternal optimist...

I hope your optimism turns out to be more accurate than my skepticism.
In 1941, a college students doing this

would have gotten an immediate butt-whooping. There would not have been time for a counter-protest.

Building a military, and having a unified country like the US 1941-1945 comes from a certain raw material, it grows in a certain soil, if you will. As I have said in other contexts, it takes a certain kind of soil for a liberal democracy, or a healthy republic, to grow. The colonies had that in 1776. Iraq did not have that in 2003. I believe we in the US have spent much of the last half century removing the soil and replacing it with gravel. Useful crops won't grow in gravel. Healthy republics won't thrive in the soil we are building here.

I went to a Memorial Day ceremony in the local cemetery today. The average age of the attendees was probably 60. There were half a dozen children present. The average age of participants was probably 70. I just don't see a lot of "soil management" going on. Where were the children? At home killing zombies, typing their 18th Facebook post of the day? I don't know. They were not learning what a great country they live in, or that young men not much older than they are now were dying in far away places to give them the freedom to kill make-believe zombies and type their 18th Facebook post of the day.

Look at the kid in the picture above. Do you really see him hitting the beaches of Normandy or Iwo Jima?

crimsonaudio · May 25, 2015

Tidewater said:
Building a military, and having a unified country like the US 1941-1945 comes from a certain raw material, it grows in a certain soil, if you will. As I have said in other contexts, it takes a certain kind of soil for a liberal democracy, or a healthy republic, to grow. The colonies had that in 1776. Iraq did not have that in 2003. I believe we in the US have spent much of the last half century removing the soil and replacing it with gravel. Useful crops won't grow in gravel. Healthy republics won't thrive in the soil we are building here.

Good point. The individualistic thrust that's occurred over the last few decades cannot help strengthen a people's resolve to fight enemies.

Al A Bama · May 25, 2015

Tidewater said:
I am not nearly is sure that the United States of 2015 has one tenth of the resilience of the United States of 1940.
Kids then grew up saying the pledge of allegiance, and hearing what a wonderful country the United States are.
Now, kids grow up, many of hem never hearing the pledge of allegiance, and in school hearing how the United States was so awful to ___ (fill in your oppressed minority group here). It seems that way more Americans have their hands out, and have forgotten JFK's admonition. So many Americans are "owed" something. "I've got ADHD, give me a check!" "I'm a broke-butt, give me a check!" I just do not think kids are taught to love their country any more. They are more likely to have been taught to gripe about what a terrible place it is. Urkel, the anti-cheerleader-in-chief (whose wife was never "really proud of her country" until her babies' daddy won a primary election, she said) is part of the problem, but he is a symptom, not the disease himself.
We have couch potatoes that can kill zombies at an amazing clip in a video game, but would simply soil themselves if somebody shot at them in real life.
I just am not sure we would have the resilience we had in 1941. I believe if the Japanese had destroyed the entire Pacific Fleet on 7 December, the US still would have won. The US produced 120 aircraft carriers, for Pete's sake. There was almost no way the Japanese could have damaged the US enough to knock the US out of the war.
Nowadays, however, as One Second After, I fear, realistically depicted, Americans faced with a serious blow (one much more easily delivered than Pearl Harbor which required six aircraft carriers and a huge support fleet), Americans are pretty vulnerable and would likely fold pretty quickly.
Dostoevsky forecast this well: "In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us."
I believe we have sown the wind and I am afraid we are going to reap the whirlwind.
I could be wrong. I hope I never find out.

I agree with your assessment. This concerns me because of my descendants.

I believe we as a society have become SOFT and are vulnerable to ISIS, the new Persian Empire, China, Russia, and maybe a few others.

Mamacalled · May 28, 2015

I have stated on many occasions that the U.S. has become too soft to win another major war. He leaders of South Pacific countries have also gone on record to say that they do not believe the U.S. Could ever win a war again.
Being proud to be an American is now looked at and taught to be bad. If you don't have pride in something then why would you ever sacrifice to protect it? Kids are being taught the the United States are the cause of all the worlds ills. Look at how politicians and the media have lied by stating that there were no WMDs in Iraq when the facts have recently come out and shown that there were. I am an old ordie and have many friends who were there and will tell you that yes, they did find WMDs. Funny thing is, the definition of WMDs has changed to fit an anti American (Bush) agenda. Politics are now more important than truth.
When or if we go to war, we no longer do what is necessary to win the war. You can not win with air strikes alone as the Isis crisis is proving. We put limitations on what our military can do because we are supposed to be civil. Well, war is not civil and the people who want to cause us harm will not play by the same rules. Do you think they are concerned if our civilians are killed? Heck no! They put their own civilians in harms way knowing that our own people will criticize our military for their harm.
We have a society that complains that Jim Harbaugh made a comment that college football is one of the last platforms left to teach young men toughness. According to many, in today's enlightened world we are not supposed to have tough men.
We have a society based on “I should be able to do as I want”. If I want to smoke dope all day I should be able to do it and other people should have to pay for my choice to be a sponge” attitude has taken over. I see it everyday to give me, I am owed mentality while there are men and women putting their lives at risk everyday for those people.
I am disgusted what we are becoming as a country.

NationalTitles18 · May 28, 2015

Should tey be able to smoke dope all day if they want? Sure! Should anyone be forced to pay for it? NO!

And women should be able to access birth control. And pay for it themselves.

And so on and so forth.

I see that same entitlement attitude. I am all for helping those who are unable to help themselves but when someone is simply unwilling and has that entitled attitude I want to blow up. It could have something to do with my "unclaimed" and unwelcome sibling falling into this very category, but I digress.

Bamaro · May 28, 2015

"The tragedy of the American military"

http://www.tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247111

Tidewater · May 28, 2015

Mamacalled said:
I have stated on many occasions that the U.S. has become too soft to win another major war. He leaders of South Pacific countries have also gone on record to say that they do not believe the U.S. Could ever win a war again.
Being proud to be an American is now looked at and taught to be bad. If you don't have pride in something then why would you ever sacrifice to protect it? Kids are being taught the the United States are the cause of all the worlds ills. Look at how politicians and the media have lied by stating that there were no WMDs in Iraq when the facts have recently come out and shown that there were. I am an old ordie and have many friends who were there and will tell you that yes, they did find WMDs. Funny thing is, the definition of WMDs has changed to fit an anti American (Bush) agenda. Politics are now more important than truth.
When or if we go to war, we no longer do what is necessary to win the war. You can not win with air strikes alone as the Isis crisis is proving. We put limitations on what our military can do because we are supposed to be civil. Well, war is not civil and the people who want to cause us harm will not play by the same rules. Do you think they are concerned if our civilians are killed? Heck no! They put their own civilians in harms way knowing that our own people will criticize our military for their harm.
We have a society that complains that Jim Harbaugh made a comment that college football is one of the last platforms left to teach young men toughness. According to many, in today's enlightened world we are not supposed to have tough men.
We have a society based on “I should be able to do as I want”. If I want to smoke dope all day I should be able to do it and other people should have to pay for my choice to be a sponge” attitude has taken over. I see it everyday to give me, I am owed mentality while there are men and women putting their lives at risk everyday for those people.
I am disgusted what we are becoming as a country.

I share your concerns.
"Soft" I'm not so worried about. A Drill Sergeant can sandblast away "soft" in a few weeks.
What I more concerned about is whether, in the event the United States need young men (and women) to fight for their country, the young people will love that country enough to sacrifice for it. If they have been fed a steady diet of what a horrible place the US is, why should anybody hit the beaches for such a country? Why would a young person put up with the rigors of training necessary to win a war in defense of such a country?
When I was growing up I heard that America was the place everyone wanted to be. My heroes were George Washington, John Wayne, Robert E. Lee, Thomas Edison. We had the best political system, the best military, the best athletes, the best literature, the best inventors, the best films. Inventors of the light bulb. First in flight, first (only) to put a man on the moon. Now, that is considered gauche and chauvinistic. When I ask my nieces and nephews, they know who Harriet Tubman was, but all they know about Thomas Jefferson was that he bonked his slave girl. They know next to nothing about the Founders except that most were slave owners and they refused to let women or black people vote. They picked on the peaceful ecologically sound Native Americans and stole their land. Why on earth would someone want to sacrifice anything to save a country like that?
I am reminded of TR's quote about patriotism.

Teddy Roosevelt said:
The man who loves other countries as much as his own stands on a level with the man who loves other women as much as he loves his own wife.

The bilious base fellows feeding “I am righteous because I have pointed out the errors of others” garbage to young people will, ironically, succeed in killing the best country the world has ever seen and find this space ruled by others who cannot hold a ethical candle to the great Americans that made this country great. And they won’t understand a bit of it as it happens.

Gr8hope · May 28, 2015

Great post Tidewater, sad and true. I cannot believe what I am witnessing and am afraid of what our children will face.

Link: "The tragedy of the American military" from The Atlantic Monthly

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

All-American

All-American

Suspended

Suspended

Administrator

Senior Administrator

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Administrator

Hall of Fame

Administrator

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

TideFans Legend

TideFans Legend

Hall of Fame

All-American

TideFans.shop - NEW Stuff!