Drug Testing for Unemployment Benefits.

Tidewater

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Gov. Walker of the Cheesehead State has proposed that anyone wishing to get unemployment benefits. The idea being that an employer can be reasonably certain that an unemployed applicant has been drug tested and is thus okay to hire. This is not for welfare, just unemployment benefits.
A Federal judge stopped a Florida law that required applicants for welfare to pass a drug test, finding that it “violated constitutional protections against unreasonable searches." Note that this was not testing for the purpose of criminal prosecution, just for receiving welfare benefits. I would guess the underlying premise was that if someone is in such bad straights that they need welfare because of their drug use, there is little point in extending the welfare money if the recipient is continuing to use drugs. Having lived with substance-abusing family members, I can attest to the wisdom of this approach.
Of course, the ACLU took this to court and, once again, a Federal judge struck down the state law (ruthlessly violating the X Amendment in a bizarre effort to incorporate the IV). And, of course, a Federal appellate court upheld the decision.
It is this stuff that drives me to distraction.
First, the policy itself seems like a good idea to me (and to Florida and to Scott Walker). Why continue to subsidize drug-using individuals' self-destructive behavior? I do not know any rational person who would argue in favor of giving money to people whose drug habit is what got them into such straits that they now need public assistance. This is just enabling a continuation of self-destructive behavior.
Second, the Founders wrote the IV Amendment because the British colonial officials were issuing "writs of assistance," which were essentially open-ended search warrants, with which the Brits searched colonials' residences and property, and prosecuted the colonists based on whatever contraband they found there. The Founders wanted to make sure this did not happen in the US. These modern-day laws, however, are not about criminal prosecution, but about receiving other people's money from the hands of the government. Why can the donors not put conditions on the gift? Don't like the conditions of the gift, don't accept the gift. Just walk away. Why that is too complex for this Federal judge is beyond me.
Third, the X Amendment dictates that a Federal judge is not allowed to have any opinion at all on a state law, unless it inevitably violates some other plain provision of the Constitution of the United States, which this clearly does not. Her only appropriate response in a case like this is, "This court has no jurisdiction over this case. Take this to a state court."

Some folks are trying to help fix some serious problems in this country, and other people are working overtime to stop them, working overtime to keep the downward spiral going.

If I was a legislator, I'd vote to impeach and/or remove such a judge, and if I were Planetary Commander, I'd banish this sod from the country. She is too stupid to be allowed to remain in the US.
 
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jps1983

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Restrictions make sense. This judge is doing what Sotomayor was concerned with in her recent opinion, but I'd be curious how she would rule on this case.
 

Jon

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I looked into this fairly extensively in a debate a few years ago and all I found was that the states that enacted this sort of thing spent far more money on testing than they saved denying benefits to drug users on welfare

in the end, in FL, the only real beneficiary of the policy wasn't the people of the State it was the Drug testing company that the State Contracted with for the screenings.

So what's the point? Desire for punishment? I don't want to subsidize drug use, sure, but I'd rather pay $100 in taxes and have someone smoke a little weed than $200 in taxes to keep him from doing it
 

Tide1986

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I looked into this fairly extensively in a debate a few years ago and all I found was that the states that enacted this sort of thing spent far more money on testing than they saved denying benefits to drug users on welfare

in the end, in FL, the only real beneficiary of the policy wasn't the people of the State it was the Drug testing company that the State Contracted with for the screenings.

So what's the point? Desire for punishment? I don't want to subsidize drug use, sure, but I'd rather pay $100 in taxes and have someone smoke a little weed than $200 in taxes to keep him from doing it
I do wonder about the sentinel effect. How many people would never apply (and not be denied) because of drug use, and how many would end drug use in order to gain benefits? I'm not sure that denied welfare payments is the only item on the benefit side of the cost-benefit analysis. But of course, even counting other reasonable benefits, drug testing may still not be cost effective.
 

Tidewater

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I looked into this fairly extensively in a debate a few years ago and all I found was that the states that enacted this sort of thing spent far more money on testing than they saved denying benefits to drug users on welfare

in the end, in FL, the only real beneficiary of the policy wasn't the people of the State it was the Drug testing company that the State Contracted with for the screenings.

So what's the point? Desire for punishment? I don't want to subsidize drug use, sure, but I'd rather pay $100 in taxes and have someone smoke a little weed than $200 in taxes to keep him from doing it
I understand the fiscal argument.
I really don't care if people smoke weed, or even smoke crack (as long as they are not driving while high or some such behavior endangering others) as long as they can function.
The bigger, in my view is whether people have a "right" to welfare, regardless of what kind of behavior they engage in that got them into a situation in which they needed public assistance. I do not believe people have such a "right."
Go to a homeless shelter, and you'll see a lot of substance abusers. Not all people in a homeless shelter will be substance abusers, but a lot of them. While some can use and lead productive lives, those that can't use and function end up in public assistance troughs. Those people need to bottom out before anyone can do anything for them.
A policy of just paying them off just seems, in the long run, hard hearted. It says, in effect, "Your life is a mess, but we don't really want to help you figure this out so you can live a life that involves a little bit of dignity and self-esteem. Here's a little cash. Go ruin your life some more."
And that does no begin to address the constitutional issues.
 

Jon

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I understand the fiscal argument.
I really don't care if people smoke weed, or even smoke crack (as long as they are not driving while high or some such behavior endangering others) as long as they can function.
The bigger, in my view is whether people have a "right" to welfare, regardless of what kind of behavior they engage in that got them into a situation in which they needed public assistance. I do not believe people have such a "right."
Go to a homeless shelter, and you'll see a lot of substance abusers. Not all people in a homeless shelter will be substance abusers, but a lot of them. While some can use and lead productive lives, those that can't use and function end up in public assistance troughs. Those people need to bottom out before anyone can do anything for them.
A policy of just paying them off just seems, in the long run, hard hearted. It says, in effect, "Your life is a mess, but we don't really want to help you figure this out so you can live a life that involves a little bit of dignity and self-esteem. Here's a little cash. Go ruin your life some more."
And that does no begin to address the constitutional issues.
Different debate as far as I am concerned. On this debate as far as I am concerned is a non- starter these policies have failed when tried.

I agree with you on welfare for the most part however, though I do feel that a safety net is a necessity at some level and that some people will always try to take advantage of it. It is a cost that is worth it to me.
 

Jon

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I do wonder about the sentinel effect. How many people would never apply (and not be denied) because of drug use, and how many would end drug use in order to gain benefits? I'm not sure that denied welfare payments is the only item on the benefit side of the cost-benefit analysis. But of course, even counting other reasonable benefits, drug testing may still not be cost effective.
I am sure that there are some but IIRC the overall payout for welfare from years with the policy and years without was fiarly indistinguishable but the overall costs to the State spiked up with payments for testing. Was it worth it to pay more to stop a few people? To me, as a Florida taxpayer, no.
 

alabama mike1

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I looked into this fairly extensively in a debate a few years ago and all I found was that the states that enacted this sort of thing spent far more money on testing than they saved denying benefits to drug users on welfare

in the end, in FL, the only real beneficiary of the policy wasn't the people of the State it was the Drug testing company that the State Contracted with for the screenings.

So what's the point? Desire for punishment? I don't want to subsidize drug use, sure, but I'd rather pay $100 in taxes and have someone smoke a little weed than $200 in taxes to keep him from doing it

I have to say I agree with my friend across the isle...again.
 

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