For every man that this happens to, tens of thousands of women are forced to deal with the shame of being raped. It doesn't change my point of view one bit.It's not irrelevant if you're the one sitting in prison for 20 years on a false charge.
For every man that this happens to, tens of thousands of women are forced to deal with the shame of being raped. It doesn't change my point of view one bit.It's not irrelevant if you're the one sitting in prison for 20 years on a false charge.
nm...Aside from this specific case I get what you're saying and yes it happens. Kids (college kids in this case) get into situations where they make decisions they soon regret. I know it is very unpopular to say but a lot of girls at that age do things with their bodies they eventually regret. Some regret it immediately some it takes longer. Some react with internal regret others react with lashing out at the other party they made the bad decision with. Some even going as for as accusations of rape. Please note I'm not saying this is what happened in the Winston case. I'm talking in general.
Being a former college athlete I saw first hand girls throw themselves at players (and I went to a community college so I can only imagine what its like at D1 level). Whether it be football, baseball or basketball players. I can tell of stories where girls willfully gave themselves to some dude on the basketball team or baseball team that they didn't even know. One case in particular I remember one of my teammates bringing this girl up to the dorm, which was against the rules. He "snuk" her up there, had sex with her and then took her back to her car. Over the next week she realized that all he did was use her. She became FURIOUS!!! Going as far as to confront him in front of several of us saying "All you did was use me for sex." Now, she didn't file rape charges or even accuse him of rape. But the opportunity and emotions were definitely there for her to take that road if she so decided. Granted he was in the wrong for doing that girl that way. But on the other side of the coin. How stupid do you have to be to go home with a dude you just met at a club, have sex with him and think he's entirely to blame because all he wanted was to have sex and nothing more?
There's a thing called "putting yourself in a bad situation" that I was taught my entire life. Think before you do this or that. Don't go in some parts of town, don't go to such and such place alone. Know your surroundings. My sisters were given the same advice and luckily they followed it and avoided a lot of the hoopla that I think many girls (college girls especially) experience.
I personally know someone this happened to. A guy I know had been talking to a girl for a couple of weeks. They met up at a bar, got wasted, and ended up going back to his place. The girl sobered up the next morning and filed rape charges. She openly admitted that she probably consented, but she was drunk. Judge ruled that because she was intoxicated, she was incapable of giving consent. Off to prison he went.I don't know anyone who disagrees with stop means stop. "Leading a guy on" may have been a poor choice of words but what I meant is sometimes the girl may change her mind after the act and regret what she's done or she may be trying to take advantage of the guy.
I still don't get where this is related to the football team being more important than the victim.
A couple of years after graduating from college, I moved to Birmingham and shared an apartment with one of my friends from college. Over the next few months, we met many of our neighbors and ended up becoming part of a "hang-out" group of friends. Two girls (I'll call them Kay and Joy) that were freshmen at a local college were part of this group. They were both very attractive and came from a small town where they had been "sheltered" (or perhaps, more appropriately, "suppressed") by the environment, so they wanted to live it up. They had both gotten fake IDs and sometimes went to bars. It became evident that Kay had a pretty good head on her shoulders, but Joy had a sometimes out-of-control wild side that Kay had never seen before and they seemed to distance themselves from each other just a bit.Aside from this specific case I get what you're saying and yes it happens. Kids (college kids in this case) get into situations where they make decisions they soon regret. I know it is very unpopular to say but a lot of girls at that age do things with their bodies they eventually regret. Some regret it immediately some it takes longer. Some react with internal regret others react with lashing out at the other party they made the bad decision with. Some even going as for as accusations of rape. Please note I'm not saying this is what happened in the Winston case. I'm talking in general.
Being a former college athlete I saw first hand girls throw themselves at players (and I went to a community college so I can only imagine what its like at D1 level). Whether it be football, baseball or basketball players. I can tell of stories where girls willfully gave themselves to some dude on the basketball team or baseball team that they didn't even know. One case in particular I remember one of my teammates bringing this girl up to the dorm, which was against the rules. He "snuk" her up there, had sex with her and then took her back to her car. Over the next week she realized that all he did was use her. She became FURIOUS!!! Going as far as to confront him in front of several of us saying "All you did was use me for sex." Now, she didn't file rape charges or even accuse him of rape. But the opportunity and emotions were definitely there for her to take that road if she so decided. Granted he was in the wrong for doing that girl that way. But on the other side of the coin. How stupid do you have to be to go home with a dude you just met at a club, have sex with him and think he's entirely to blame because all he wanted was to have sex and nothing more?
There's a thing called "putting yourself in a bad situation" that I was taught my entire life. Think before you do this or that. Don't go in some parts of town, don't go to such and such place alone. Know your surroundings. My sisters were given the same advice and luckily they followed it and avoided a lot of the hoopla that I think many girls (college girls especially) experience.
If you were the one sitting in prison (of course rapists in prison don't always sit), with your name smeared, your family shamed, and knowing that when you get out, you will be a pariah because of the sex offender registry and the record and YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG, you might care. It's pretty typical to not care when you aren't affected.For every man that this happens to, tens of thousands of women are forced to deal with the shame of being raped. It doesn't change my point of view one bit.
For you, the next line might read:Martin Niemöller said:When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
andB1GTide said:I am a firm believer in guilty until proven innocent when it comes to rape allegations.
Prosecutor:"Sure, we have no DNA evidence, no proof that the victim and B1GTide were together, no proof that they know each other, and B1GTide has a well-supported alibi but EVEN ACCORDING TO HIM, false rape accusations are SO RARE that they are statistically irrelevant. So, we should consider the rape allegation against him to be PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT because the chances of the allegation being false isB1GTide said:Sure, some women falsely accuse men of rape, but if I had to bet on the real percentage of those occurrences, I would put it so low as to be statistically irrelevant.
The state rests its case.B1GTide said:so low as to be statistically irrelevant.
I do not accept that many men have been falsely accused of rape. Everyone has a story like the one posted earlier. They are "legend". I simply do not believe them. You can if you wish. I do not and will not. A woman gets drunk and has sex with a man and admits later in court that she might have consented - the man does not go to jail unless he has a prior record, there are other extenuating circumstances (he drugged her drink or got her drunk on purpose) or she is under-aged. Period. Show me evidence where it has happened and I will consider it, but I don't accept an internet legend as proof of anything.If you were the one sitting in prison (of course rapists in prison don't always sit), with your name smeared, your family shamed, and knowing that when you get out, you will be a pariah because of the sex offender registry and the record and YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG, you might care. It's pretty typical to not care when you aren't affected.
Going to a bar and drinking with your friends should not be "risky" behavior. Attending a frat party should not be "risky" behavior. And parents tell their daughters to travel in groups and never leave any of the group alone, even to go to the bathroom. Education doesn't help. Because no one believes that they are going to be the victim of a crime until it happens. The bar feels safe and you are with your friends having fun. You are young and life is full of endless possibilities - not dangers.Life would be just peachy if we could do anything we want and not have to endure consequences, but it's not that way. There are men who will rape and no-one can change that. However, the choices that women make DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE in their chances of being a victim. Even making all the right choices doesn't completely eliminate the chances of being victimized, but it makes that chance much, much less. Those that refuse to recognize that women do affect their chances of being victimized by some of their decisions are not helping the situation at all. They are helping the rapists by downplaying the effect of the bad decisions that some victims do make and thus promulgating this false idea that women have no power to prevent themselves from being victimized.
The "You can worry about it but I don't because I am morally superior and above the spectre of suspicion" defense.But you are afraid that you will be falsely accused? Please. How about the fear for the women being raped? Save your fear for them. I am not afraid for myself or my sons.
There are a lot of "should"'s in life. People should be able to walk down any street and not worry about being mugged, stabbed, or shot. That's not the case, however. If I tell someone, "Hey, I wouldn't walk down Stickemup Avenue after dark," I'm not making excuses for a predator or protecting them. I'm giving a warning to someone that they may have to alter their behavior to protect themself. Apparently, you think that warning women about behaviors that put them at more risk of being a victim is making excuses for rapists. That's completely inane. I warn my kids everyday about the choices they make. Do you think that I do that to protect people that are a danger to them? You've got everything completely backward.Going to a bar and drinking with your friends should not be "risky" behavior. Attending a frat party should not be "risky" behavior. And parents tell their daughters to travel in groups and never leave any of the group alone, even to go to the bathroom. Education doesn't help. Because no one believes that they are going to be the victim of a crime until it happens. The bar feels safe and you are with your friends having fun. You are young and life is full of endless possibilities - not dangers.
Young people think differently than we do. That does not make their behavior part of the problem. It isn't. The sole problem is that there are people out there who are predators, and we make excuses for them and protect them.
You're grossly missing the point...For every man that this happens to, tens of thousands of women are forced to deal with the shame of being raped. It doesn't change my point of view one bit.
It's easy because they aren't the ones being accused. It's like my wife's OBGYN told me one time when I told my wife "It's just minor surgery". "It's only minor when you're not the one going under."The "You can worry about it but I don't because I am morally superior and above the spectre of suspicion" defense.
There are three forms of false rape accusations. One is where the act never happened and those ARE probably quite rare. Another is where the victim consented initially and then regretted their decision and those are much more common. The last is where the victim does not know her attacker, gives a general description, and then picks an innocent man from a lineup because maybe he does look like the person that attacked her and there is evidence that he was in the area or he doesn't have a solid alibi for the time of the crime. The last case is also rare, but there are plenty of cases where not only were charges filed but even some convictions resulted. Some of the men that were falsely convicted have been freed due to modern DNA technology and the hard work of The Innocence Project, but even those come home to a situation where most people still look at them with a jaded eye and their lives will never be the same.
I prefer "innocent until proven guilty" and I realize that our society will never realize that ideal because it's just too easy or maybe more satisfying to prejudge people before waiting until all the facts are in. We're an "I want it NOW" society even in application of justice. Maybe we should just do away with the courts and return to the methods of the Inquisition. Surely people don't ever make false accusations or accuse the wrong person of a crime, so let's just burn 'em at the stake and save the cost of trials.
Sorry - I am not, you guys are. The problem is the rape. Your behavior and this very discussion is a huge part of the problem. This thought process protects those who rape at the expense of the victims. You are saying that women who go out drinking at a bar are responsible for their rape because they should have known better. Disgusting.You're grossly missing the point...
So everyone is a liar?I do not accept that many men have been falsely accused of rape. Everyone has a story like the one posted earlier. They are "legend". I simply do not believe them. You can if you wish. I do not and will not.
But you are afraid that you will be falsely accused? Please. How about the fear for the women being raped? Save your fear for them. I am not afraid for myself or my sons.
You seem to contradict yourself. You are not afraid for yourself or your sons. Why? Is it just blissful faith or is it because you and your sons don't engage in behaviors or put yourself into situations where you could be accused? If the former is the case, then you are an optimist with no equal. If the latter is the case, then why is it different for someone to encourage their daughters to do the same?And parents tell their daughters to travel in groups and never leave any of the group alone, even to go to the bathroom. Education doesn't help. Because no one believes that they are going to be the victim of a crime until it happens.
Young people think differently than we do. That does not make their behavior part of the problem. It isn't. The sole problem is that there are people out there who are predators, and we make excuses for them and protect them.
I am responsible for all rape because I think that women can protect themselves by not placing themselves into risky situations.Sorry - I am not, you guys are. The problem is the rape. Your behavior and this very discussion is a huge part of the problem. This thought process protects those who rape at the expense of the victims. You are saying that women who go out drinking at a bar are responsible for their rape because they should have known better. Disgusting.
Don't blame evil men for rape - look in the mirror. You are part of the problem.
Whatever has happened in your personal life has grossly distorted your thinking. That is obvious ("Guilty until proven innocent"). Whatever happened I'm sorry it did but you're letting emotions get the best of your judgement. You probably need to bow out of this conversation...Sorry - I am not, you guys are. The problem is the rape. Your behavior and this very discussion is a huge part of the problem. This thought process protects those who rape at the expense of the victims. You are saying that women who go out drinking at a bar are responsible for their rape because they should have known better. Disgusting.
Don't blame evil men for rape - look in the mirror. You are part of the problem.
Because this is not a problem worth worrying about. It is like worrying about dying in a plane crash. Could it happen? Sure. But the chances are so remote that it can be discounted completely and should not alter your behavior.You are not afraid for yourself or your sons. Why?
I will - this is my last post in this thread. But you need to have your views on this challenged.You probably need to bow out of this conversation...
Well gosh. I'll just tell my daughter to do whatever she wants then. I wouldn't want to protect predators.Because this is not a problem worth worrying about. It is like worrying about dying in a plane crash. Could it happen? Sure. But the chances are so remote that it can be discounted completely and should not alter your behavior.
On the other hand, nearly one in five women will be raped in America. That is a problem. What you are discussing is not a problem. When men change the discussion away from rape to something like this (some women lie, women should travel in groups, women should not get drunk in a bar or at a party, women should be more careful, etc), they do so because they are conditioned to do so. These are not your thoughts - they have been taught to you and you accept them. Question them. Learn the truth. Stop spreading lies and half truths that protect predators.
I get what you are saying and for the most part I agree. But, here is your statistically irrelevant proof...It happened.I am a firm believer in guilty until proven innocent when it comes to rape allegations. Backwards, I know, but I have too many women close to me who have been raped. And there is a lot of pressure on those women to just accept some blame for it (they call it "responsibility", but they mean blame) and let it go. Women often recant when it becomes more clear to them exactly hat they will face if they follow through with charges. The shame of a "lie" is a lot easier to deal with than the shame of having been raped.
Sure, some women falsely accuse men of rape, but if I had to bet on the real percentage of those occurrences, I would put it so low as to be statistically irrelevant.
If these are not my thoughts, then I can't be held culpable for all rape and for protecting predators.On the other hand, nearly one in five women will be raped in America. That is a problem. What you are discussing is not a problem. When men change the discussion away from rape to something like this (some women lie, women should travel in groups, women should not get drunk in a bar or at a party, women should be more careful, etc), they do so because they are conditioned to do so. These are not your thoughts - they have been taught to you and you accept them. Question them. Learn the truth. Stop spreading lies and half truths that protect predators.