Judging a Coach Based on Number of NCAA Tournament Appearances is Very Tricky

RTR91 · Jan 30, 2015

This isn't meant as a defense of Anthony Grant. Just a general observation I've pondered for awhile now.

When fans and media discuss a coach's future at a school, we like to point to the number of NCAA tournament appearances. Why? That is a very dangerous territory.

First, automatic bids for the mid-majors tend to take spots of the true "bubble" teams and end up getting blown out in the first round. Why does a team get punished for going 21-11 or 22-10 only because a 16-16 team wins the Ohio Valley Conference tournament?

Yes, there are 68 teams in the tournament. But does anyone honestly feel that those are 68 best teams in the nation?

Another example of a team that deserves a tournament bid that doesn't go: Team A is on "the bubble" after finishing 22-11 (win and loss in conference tournament). Team B is on the NIT "bubble" after going 18-13 but gets hot and wins the conference tournament (ala 2008 Georgia) to earn a tournament bid.

Considering those situations and others like them, coaches should not be judge solely on how many times he takes his team to the NCAA tournament.

It also makes me wonder how folks can say during a season a team is a "tournament team." There's only a few of those, and they're in the top 25. The rest are just hoping to play well to get a spot.

lorange · Jan 30, 2015

An AD must have the ability to recognize the talents of an individual that can make him or her a good coach. Being a hard worker and a "people person" are great assets. Coach Bryant was a great football coach, but I think his greatest gift was evaluating those he hired as AD. He hired C.M. Newton from Transylvania College, Sara Patterson who had just graduated college, and Wimp Sanderson who was an asst. coach. Today that would be questionable.

Rama Jama · Jan 30, 2015

You pay big money to a coach, you expect results. In this case NCAA tourney appearances mean everything. I think 320 or so college teams compete in basketball and we can't even be in the top 40 or so year in year out. I am not an X's & O's guys, but even I can tell he is a lame duck. The players know, he knows it, and hopefully the administration knows it. CAG has a ton of character and I applaud him for being a good role model, but he is paid to win games. You can be a good coach and still be a good example to the kids on the team. Coach K is a prime example. Duke was nothing prior to his arrival. CAG has trouble managing egos and recruiting top flight players.

bamahippie · Jan 30, 2015

I also went back and looked at the top coaches of recent vintage, noting their records early on. When taking over a team in a traditional power conference, it seems each of the "greats" had their squads winning at a pretty good clip at least by years 4 or 5, and in some cases year 2 or 3. I don't know why, but I guess I was expecting it to be a mixed bag. I guess, either you have "it" or you don't. I've throwing the term Eeyore around for the naysayers, but I guess if I can't beat you, can I join you? :blush:

Bama Lee · Jan 30, 2015

Also think of how that plays out in these kids minds. Do they want to go play for a coach that rarely goes to the tournament? How does that play out for fans? Do kids want to go to a basketball school that lately doesn't get to the big dance? I had a blast in school and wearing the wimp masks. Recruiting and money from enrollment is a really big piece of the equation.

37bamagreats55 · Jan 30, 2015

If we judged Coach Grant on character, he'd have a lifetime contract. Unfortunately, we have had a terrible time getting to the tournament. However, that's not the only think. He's been mediocre against top teams. How many top-20 victories have we had in the past three seasons?

It's black and white. Winning is the bottom line. Winning with character and class is also important.

Ldlane · Jan 30, 2015

There aren't any "naysayers" here. The product speaks for itself. I've been a Grant supporter for the past five years and have been patient, but when he came he promised "Up Tempo" offense and a trademark "Mosquito defense". I haven't seen but traces of the Defense that he had a VCU and none of the offensive talents that he had "drilling treys" on the fly. My biggest hopes have been dashed thinking that we could dip in JUCO links from Florida and get some of that South Florida talent from his "connections" to that area. There has been no delivery!! I've seen better and coached better Middle School offenses than the one we've seen on the floor over the past month.

bamahippie said:
I also went back and looked at the top coaches of recent vintage, noting their records early on. When taking over a team in a traditional power conference, it seems each of the "greats" had their squads winning at a pretty good clip at least by years 4 or 5, and in some cases year 2 or 3. I don't know why, but I guess I was expecting it to be a mixed bag. I guess, either you have "it" or you don't. I've throwing the term Eeyore around for the naysayers, but I guess if I can't beat you, can I join you? :blush:

DzynKingRTR · Jan 30, 2015

I am all for giving a coach time, but we have given enough time and there has been zero improvement. We play Kentucky on Saturday and that could get real ugly.

If Grant is fired at the end of this year, is there anybody we could get that could turn this around? Even if we did would they stay or move on to a basketball school?

alabama mike1 · Jan 31, 2015

I have been on the Grant bandwagon as well since he was hired. I do not think anyone wants a coach to fail or get fired. Character and professionalism with CAG are not the problems. I still want him to get this season turned around.

Here is what I see:
1. Every recruit belongs to Grant.
2. We have a 5 that is foul prone and does not rebound.
3. Our zone offense is just painful to watch. I am worn out after a game.
4. We do not push the ball on offense and end up taking bad shots or no shot as the clock runs down.
5. I'd settle for getting to the dance this year but it is not an end all.
6. The NCAA tourney should be an after thought, we should be able to advance in it.
7. Bama should be good in basketball, there is no reason we can't.
8. 6 years is enough time to see consistency in a program heading in the right direction.

I, like many others want us to do well but the bottom line is that it is not happening. We have not be consistently good year in and year out since CWS roamed the Plaid Palace.

imauafan · Jan 31, 2015

lorange said:
An AD must have the ability to recognize the talents of an individual that can make him or her a good coach. Being a hard worker and a "people person" are great assets. Coach Bryant was a great football coach, but I think his greatest gift was evaluating those he hired as AD. He hired C.M. Newton from Transylvania College, Sara Patterson who had just graduated college, and Wimp Sanderson who was an asst. coach. Today that would be questionable.

Didn't he also hire Barry Shollenberger? If so, pretty impressive list of coaches.

imauafan · Jan 31, 2015

I think others have expressed the same thing but the key is consistency and improvement. That does not always equal a trip to the NCAA tourney but it should in most years. I believe we got shafted in 2010 and should have received an invite. We were on a hot streak at the end of the season and defeated UGa twice within 1 week but UGa was invited and we were not. That is a blatantly obvious mistake on the part of the committee. However, we have not proven to have any consistency or steady rate of improvement under Grant so regardless of the number of trips to the tourney it is time to make a change. I generally agree with your point but I think a good coach will have his team solidly in the field of 68 most years.

BamaHoHo · Jan 31, 2015

alabama mike1 said:
I have been on the Grant bandwagon as well since he was hired. I do not think anyone wants a coach to fail or get fired. Character and professionalism with CAG are not the problems. I still want him to get this season turned around.

Here is what I see:
1. Every recruit belongs to Grant.
2. We have a 5 that is foul prone and does not rebound.
3. Our zone offense is just painful to watch. I am worn out after a game.
4. We do not push the ball on offense and end up taking bad shots or no shot as the clock runs down.
5. I'd settle for getting to the dance this year but it is not an end all.
6. The NCAA tourney should be an after thought, we should be able to advance in it.
7. Bama should be good in basketball, there is no reason we can't.
8. 6 years is enough time to see consistency in a program heading in the right direction.

I, like many others want us to do well but the bottom line is that it is not happening. We have not be consistently good year in and year out since CWS roamed the Plaid Palace.

9. We appear to be more interested in getting back to play Defense than getting an Offensive rebound.

bamahippie · Feb 2, 2015

Ldlane said:
There aren't any "naysayers" here. The product speaks for itself. I've been a Grant supporter for the past five years and have been patient, but when he came he promised "Up Tempo" offense and a trademark "Mosquito defense". I haven't seen but traces of the Defense that he had a VCU and none of the offensive talents that he had "drilling treys" on the fly. My biggest hopes have been dashed thinking that we could dip in JUCO links from Florida and get some of that South Florida talent from his "connections" to that area. There has been no delivery!! I've seen better and coached better Middle School offenses than the one we've seen on the floor over the past month.

I agree with all of that, except "There aren't any "naysayers" here". There are and have been, but all I am saying at this point is that there is nothing wrong with "saying nay". There is really nothing to "say yeah" about, until a change is made, for all of the reasons you stated. But saying nay is saying nay.

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Judging a Coach Based on Number of NCAA Tournament Appearances is Very Tricky

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