Paper; Global Warming "The Biggest Science Scandal Ever"

AUDub · Oct 13, 2015

NationalTitles15 said:
An honest question here: Where is the line on denier vs skeptic? Where does one cross that line when it comes to global warming or climate change?

When one replaces their sense of skepticism with willful ignorance.

NationalTitles15 said:
It's obvious the Earth has warmed over the last 200-300 years (honestly, we can say more about the northern hemisphere than the southern). There's no doubt the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere has increased. It seems likely that man has contributed to that. CO2 is a known greenhouse gas. All makes sense. Doesn't the question mostly come down to one of several from whether the models are right, if their fudge factors (they all have them) accurately reflect the real thing, the amount of warming, how much man actually contributes to that, and maybe a few other questions? So are some of those not legitimate? Which question makes one a denier? Which one makes one a skeptic? I honestly want to know.

Those are all fair questions.

Think of it this way to draw the distinction. Working in health care, I am very skeptical of alternative medicine. Does that make me an alt-med denialist? Say you meet someone that is a Holocaust denialist. Would you consider him a skeptic?

CajunCrimson · Oct 13, 2015

cuda.1973 said:
It is a hoax, because I have been hearing about it for over 40 years. Same crap, reheated and served back up. Back then, "ZPG" was the accompanying buzz word. Now, it is "de-growth".

I suppose you missed the study that shows phosgene gas is produced in much higher quantities than any model has taken into account. All from biological activity, of organisms on the surface of the oceans. Humans have nothing to do with it.

Anyway, it causes cooling. I thought we are supposed to be getting warmer? Isn't that the latest party line?

The earth has been here for over 4.5 billion years longer than we have. And gone through numerous monumental changes. Yet, some folks want to take an infinitesimal slice of its history, and extrapolate all manner of dire consequences. That is just fantasy.

Darn near everyone that I know, who clings to that fantasy, will also tell me there were 8, no, wait........10 (or is it 12) shooters in Dealy Plaza, back in Nov. '63. Is that a coincidence? I think not.

And let's not forget the leaders of the radical "climate change" movement, who openly profess that capitalism is a system that causes worldwide suffering, and must be eliminated.

I suppose you miss all of those statements, as well.

It's like they said the rains in SC were 1 in 1000 year rains....and people said it was because of Global Warming/Weirding, etc...

My question is -- 1000 years ago -- when those 1 in 1000 year rains were happening, what was causing Global Warming then?

cuda.1973 · Oct 13, 2015

Bamaro said:
Simply untrue

I guess you don't pay attention to what is going on. Don't make me waste my time digging up all the quotes from the fake high priests of global warming.

Get in your way-back machine, and go back to the first "Earth Day". Same crowd peddling the same crap.

cuda.1973 · Oct 13, 2015

I'm sure this chap has been mentioned here. (I have no intention of reading all of the nonsense posted here, to find out.)

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/13/top-physicist-freeman-dyson-obama-picked-wrong-side-climate-change/

You don't have to read the entire article. The cogent point is:

Follow the money.

A lot of folks make a career of peddling fear. Especially if it has research $$$$$ attached to that fear. It is as simple as that.

The primary job, of any researcher, is not to do research. It is to get research grants. And it is not something confined to left-leaning researchers. They all play that game. A game which does not have an ending, since there is always something that needs further research to come to definite conclusion. A conclusion, that for some strange reason, never seems to be reached.

mittman · Oct 13, 2015

LOL I have been called a denier far more often than a skeptic. I don't really consider myself either.

IMO it is all relative. Just because someone is an expert does not make them infallible. Just because someone is not working in the field does not mean they are not intelligent enough to have a breakthrough. I do give weight in my analysis of who I tend to believe based on those, but I don't discount them completely either.

At some point the changes being pushed and motivations for those changes do come into question. I do agree with Bamaro that the statement is for the most part untrue. However, there is enough influence on the far left side of the political ledger pushing political ideology based on climate change to understand why one would think so. In the end it always comes down to the question: What do you think we should do about it, and at who's expense? The political ideology of the one being questioned always factors in the answer, even if that ideology is left/right neutral.

AUDub · Oct 13, 2015

cuda.1973 said:
It is a hoax, because I have been hearing about it for over 40 years. Same crap, reheated and served back up. Back then, "ZPG" was the accompanying buzz word. Now, it is "de-growth".

See, NT15? This is a denialist.

cuda.1973 said:
I suppose you missed the study that shows phosgene gas is produced in much higher quantities than any model has taken into account. All from biological activity, of organisms on the surface of the oceans. Humans have nothing to do with it.

Anyway, it causes cooling. I thought we are supposed to be getting warmer? Isn't that the latest party line?

Can you source the bolded claim?

I think you are confused about phosgene. It's used in refrigeration applications, true, but any cooling effect it might have once free in the atmosphere is negligible. It can, however, react with the ozone layer when it oxidizes, thereby destroying it and causing further tropospheric warming.

Reference.

cuda.1973 said:
The earth has been here for over 4.5 billion years longer than we have. And gone through numerous monumental changes. Yet, some folks want to take an infinitesimal slice of its history, and extrapolate all manner of dire consequences. That is just fantasy.

The infinitesimal slice of history in which we have been around is perfectly suited for us and the life around us. We would not be able to survive on the earth of 1Bn years ago

cuda.1973 said:
Darn near everyone that I know, who clings to that fantasy, will also tell me there were 8, no, wait........10 (or is it 12) shooters in Dealy Plaza, back in Nov. '63. Is that a coincidence? I think not.

And let's not forget the leaders of the radical "climate change" movement, who openly profess that capitalism is a system that causes worldwide suffering, and must be eliminated.

I suppose you miss all of those statements, as well.

THWACKA THWACKA THWACKA

AUDub · Oct 13, 2015

cuda.1973 said:
I guess you don't pay attention to what is going on. Don't make me waste my time digging up all the quotes from the fake high priests of global warming.

Get in your way-back machine, and go back to the first "Earth Day". Same crowd peddling the same crap.

You should support your claim.

AUDub · Oct 13, 2015

CajunCrimson said:
It's like they said the rains in SC were 1 in 1000 year rains....and people said it was because of Global Warming/Weirding, etc...

My question is -- 1000 years ago -- when those 1 in 1000 year rains were happening, what was causing Global Warming then?

Bit ridiculous to automatically liken an individual extreme weather event to AGW. No conclusion about climate can ever be drawn from a single storm.

CajunCrimson · Oct 13, 2015

AUDub said:
See, NT15? This is a denialist.

Can you source the bolded claim?

I think you are confused about phosgene. It's used in refrigeration applications, true, but any cooling effect it might have once free in the atmosphere is negligible. It can, however, react with the ozone layer when it oxidizes, thereby destroying it and causing further tropospheric warming.

Reference.

The infinitesimal slice of history in which we have been around is perfectly suited for us and the life around us. We would not be able to survive on the earth of 1Bn years ago

THWACKA THWACKA THWACKA

Please don't repeat all 1000 of your posts again.......

CajunCrimson · Oct 13, 2015

So when will the next Ice Age be?
Another Ice Age is inevitably due, but not any time soon. The last Ice Age occurred roughly 11,500 years ago. Although the next Ice Age was previously predicted to be in about 1,500 years, we are now finding that because carbon dioxide emission into the atmosphere is at such a high level the next Ice Age may be delayed further by another thousand years. Blame it on global warming. However, as speculations on further delay will inevitably change, the point to take from this is that most of us will not be alive to witness another major Ice Age on Earth.

Global Warming will save us from extinction

-- Sweet! Global warming is going to buy us an additional 1000 years before the next ice age.....we are so lucky to have had the foresight to make this happen.

http://skywalker.cochise.edu/wellerr/students/iceage-soon/project.htm

AUDub · Oct 13, 2015

CajunCrimson said:
Please don't repeat all 1000 of your posts again.......

You know as well as I do that these debates go in circles. I said on page 1 this would happen. Not my fault others haven't bothered to follow the conversation.

CajunCrimson · Oct 13, 2015

AUDub said:
You know as well as I do that these debates go in circles. I said on page 1 this would happen. Not my fault others haven't bothered to follow the conversation.

Maybe you don't have to comment on EVERY post.....ever thought about that?

AUDub · Oct 13, 2015

CajunCrimson said:
Maybe you don't have to comment on EVERY post.....ever thought about that?

Bamaro · Oct 13, 2015

cuda.1973 said:
I guess you don't pay attention to what is going on. Don't make me waste my time digging up all the quotes from the fake high priests of global warming.

Get in your way-back machine, and go back to the first "Earth Day". Same crowd peddling the same crap.

I do pay attention to whats going on, and to what science says about it. Thats the problem. "Fake high priests of global warming", thats simply laughable.

NationalTitles18 · Oct 13, 2015

AUDub said:
When one replaces their sense of skepticism with willful ignorance.

Those are all fair questions.

Think of it this way to draw the distinction. Working in health care, I am very skeptical of alternative medicine. Does that make me an alt-med denialist? Say you meet someone that is a Holocaust denialist. Would you consider him a skeptic?

Seems like you are avoiding an answer to the question. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Regardless, this is a nonanswer answer. Where's the line? If you are going to accuse then you should define the term unambiguously. Otherwise, it is just malarkey.

AUDub · Oct 13, 2015

NationalTitles15 said:
Seems like you are avoiding an answer to the question. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Regardless, this is a nonanswer answer. Where's the line? If you are going to accuse then you should define the term unambiguously. Otherwise, it is just malarkey.

As I said, the line is when one replaces their sense of skepticism with willful ignorance. This is why, basing it on his own words, Freeman Dyson is a denialist:

Freeman Dyson said:
My objections to the global warming propaganda (Dub: Dunning-Kruger Effect here) are not so much over the technical facts, about which I do not know much...

Skepticism is a method that includes the demand for evidence and critical analysis of it.

Denialism is the refusal to accept well-established theory, law, fact or evidence. Modern medicine, for example. A few more examples to clarify the distinction:

Astrology skeptic
Paranormal skeptic
Alien Abduction skeptic
Alternative medicine skeptic
Bigfoot skeptic
Dowsing skeptic
Past life regression skeptic
etc.

compared to:

Evolution denialist
Holocaust denialist
HIV as the cause of AIDS denialist
Moon Landing denialist
Vaccine denialist
etc.

Is that better?

NationalTitles18 · Oct 13, 2015

AUDub said:
As I said, the line is when one replaces their sense of skepticism with willful ignorance. This is why, basing it on his own words, Freeman Dyson is a denialist:

Skepticism is a method that includes the demand for evidence and critical analysis of it.

Denialism is the refusal to accept well-established theory, law, fact or evidence. Modern medicine, for example. A few more examples to clarify the distinction:

Astrology skeptic
Paranormal skeptic
Alien Abduction skeptic
Alternative medicine skeptic
Bigfoot skeptic
Dowsing skeptic
Past life regression skeptic
etc.

compared to:

Evolution denialist
Holocaust denialist
HIV as the cause of AIDS denialist
Moon Landing denialist
Vaccine denialist
etc.

Is that better?

Context matters, so what was the rest of the truncated quote?

AUDub · Oct 13, 2015

NationalTitles15 said:
Context matters, so what was the rest of the truncated quote?

I quoted in full on page 37. I'm not quote mining him, if that's what you're suggesting. It didn't pertain to his professed ignorance on the subject. Here it is, though:

Freeman Dyson said:
...but it’s rather against the way those people behave and the kind of intolerance to criticism that a lot of them have. I think that’s what upsets me.

Nothing wrong with it on its face, until he eventually started making ex cathedra statements on climate science.

NationalTitles18 · Oct 13, 2015

AUDub said:
I quoted in full on page 37. I'm not quote mining him, if that's what you're suggesting. It didn't pertain to his professed ignorance on the subject. Here it is, though:

Nothing wrong with it on its face, until he eventually started making ex cathedra statements on climate science.

Rich.

AUDub · Oct 13, 2015

NationalTitles15 said:
Rich.

Solid counterpoint.

Paper; Global Warming "The Biggest Science Scandal Ever"

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