Paper; Global Warming "The Biggest Science Scandal Ever"

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AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
The models do ok from 1990 on. Does that mean you win? Or did time exist before 1990. I'm only interested because there are some memories I'd like to keep and others I'd like to forget....so I guess I'm not rooting for either way as it would be a wash.
I understand where you're coming from here.Before they even use a model, they test it through a technique called hindcasting. By their very nature, you're going to see some variation. These are models, not real world observations. It's important that they accurately represent the real world, but the variation comes from the fact that certain unique conditions or randomized events, though the model may account for them, may occur at a different time, or even not occur at all. To phrase it thusly, the equation may be different (20+20+20+20=80 compared to 10+10+29+30=79 or 11+40+10+20=81. This is a gross oversimplification, but you get the idea.), but the end result should be a fairly close match.

For example, if you start a sophisticated model run in 1900, it might accurately include an event like the dust bowl. However, rather than having it occur in the 1930s, it may occur sometime in the 50s or 60s. Consider also things like 100 year storms. We call them that because statistically you'll see 1 every 100 years. Some runs may not have a storm at all. Some might have 2 similar storms. Most should accurately predict 1. Same with volcanoes. Throw in things like this, El Niño and La Niña events and it's obvious why they'll be different from observations. They'll generally make several runs to give them a mean and compare that with actual measurements. Still won't be perfect, but hey, you do what you can.

An example of the models predictive power is shown by Hansen's relatively primitive models. They accurately predicted a 1991 volcanic eruption that lead to a short term cooling event in 1992. They've come a long way since then and still have a long way to go, but they are useful.
 
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Bama Reb

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I understand where you're coming from here.

Before they even use a model, they test it through a technique called hindcasting. By their very nature, you're going to see some variation. These are models, not real world observations.
... They accurately predicted a 1991 volcanic eruption that lead to a short term cooling event in 1992. They've come a long way since then and still have a long way to go, but they are useful.
Hekla or Mt. Pinatubo? Regardless, the thought of a volcanic eruption causing "short term cooling" is hardly world shaking.

The problem I see with the doom and gloom climate change groupers is that they have no real "cause and effect" evidence on which to base their claims. They've been predicting ice ages, unfathomable heat waves and just about every other catastrophic occurrence for decades. Yet not once have they ever been accurate. If I remember, it was just a few short years ago when your own dearly beloved Al Gore attended a UN conference on Global Warming, which iirc got completely snowed in.
Wonder why he couldn't predict that?:confused:
So you'll forgive me if I meet your hysterical claims with a good bit of skepticism.
Show me predictions, then show me accurate results, and we'll talk.
Until then,all I'm hearing is just more yada, yada, yada.
 
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CajunCrimson

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Hekla or Mt. Pinatubo? Regardless, the thought of a volcanic eruption causing "short term cooling" is hardly world shaking.

The problem I see with the doom and gloom climate change groupers is that they have no real "cause and effect" evidence on which to base their claims. They've been predicting ice ages, unfathomable heat waves and just about every other catastrophic occurrence for decades. Yet not once have they ever been accurate. If I remember, it was just a few short years ago when your own dearly beloved Al Gore attended a UN conference on Global Warming, which iirc got completely snowed in.
Wonder why he couldn't predict that?:confused:
So you'll forgive me if I meet your hysterical claims with a good bit of skepticism.
Show me predictions, then show me accurate results, and we'll talk.
Until then,all I'm hearing is just more yada, yada, yada.
They never make short range predictions that can be observed. They are always 50+ years out. When the have made short term predictions, they have always been wrong.

Snake oil salesmen always get out of town before the townsfolk discover they are drinking gin mixed with licorice.
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Hekla or Mt. Pinatubo? Regardless, the thought of a volcanic eruption causing "short term cooling" is hardly world shaking.
Pinabunto. The interesting thing about it accurately predicting it was that it was a statistically likely event that the model took into account.

The problem I see with the doom and gloom climate change groupers is that they have no real "cause and effect" evidence on which to base their claims.
Uh, without the forcing effect of CO2 taken into account, the models don't work. At all. And it's nature as a GHG has been known for well overa century. Example:



They've been predicting ice ages...
They have not. We've already debate the supposed "global cooling" consensus earlier in this thread. You're flat wrong. A review of the peer reviewed scientific literature from that time reflected the consensus opinion for a warming trend. That consensus has only gotten stronger.

...unfathomable heat waves and just about every other catastrophic occurrence for decades. Yet not once have they ever been accurate. If I remember, it was just a few short years ago when your own dearly beloved Al Gore attended a UN conference on Global Warming, which iirc got completely snowed in.
Wonder why he couldn't predict that?:confused:
Yet another one that doesn't know the difference between meteorology and climatology.

So you'll forgive me if I meet your hysterical claims with a good bit of skepticism.
Way to frame the argument there, bud. :rolleyes:

Show me predictions, then show me accurate results, and we'll talk.
Here ya go:



Until then,all I'm hearing is just more yada, yada, yada.
That's because you already have your conclusion, despite the science telling you otherwise, and you're sticking to it.
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
They never make short range predictions that can be observed. They are always 50+ years out. When the have made short term predictions, they have always been wrong.

Snake oil salesmen always get out of town before the townsfolk discover they are drinking gin mixed with licorice.
Uh...

They've made a metric ton of predictions that have been observed.
 

CajunCrimson

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Uh...

They've made a metric ton of predictions that have been observed.
When they can't predict a Hurricane 3 days out. When they can't predict weather on a daily basis......you think they can predict the climate 10 years away?

Five years ago at a UN Conference on Climate Change, Al Gore predicted that, global warming having reached such an unbridled pitch, the North Pole might be completely ice-free during the summer of 2014. This climate change crusader had made the same claim when he accepted the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize. Was he right?
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
When they can't predict a Hurricane 3 days out. When they can't predict weather on a daily basis......you think they can predict the climate 10 years away?
You still do not know the difference between meteorology and climatology! I feel like I'm arguing in circles here! How many time must it be explained? :pDT_nunu:

Weather models predict specifics for a few days or so. Climate models predict generalities for next decade or so (or generally farther). That's the difference.
 
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AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Regarding Al Gore, the man is not a climate scientist and has needed to put his foot in his mouth from time to time on the matter. However, he has generally been more accurate than the denialists that mention his name in every climate debate. It's called Gore's Law. Look it up.

BUT, ice melt has been one of those things on which the models have generally been too conservative. It's actually disappearing faster than predicted a few years back, particularly in the Arctic. At the rate it's melting, it's not outside the realm of possibility we could have a nearly ice free Arctic summer within a very short time. Like, within my lifetime.

I'm 30, by the way.
 
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CajunCrimson

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You still do not know the difference between meteorology and climatology! I feel like I'm arguing in circles here! How many time must it be explained? :pDT_nunu:

Weather models predict specifics for a few days or so. Climate models predict generalities for next decade or so (or generally farther). That's the difference.
I totally understand the difference. What I'm trying to explain to you. Is that you are saying provable science (Meteorology) isn't predictable with 100% accuracy - but unprovable science (Climatology) is 100% accurate. Climate models are just that - computer based models that can't predict anything with any accuracy. Hurricane Models - which use computer based predictions all offer different outcomes...and aren't near 100% accurate.

Why should we assume climate models will be?

You are talking in circles....because you are using circle logic......
 

CajunCrimson

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Regarding Al Gore, the man is not a climate scientist and has needed to put his foot in his mouth from time to time on the matter. However, he has generally been more accurate than the denialists that mention his name in every climate debate. It's called Gore's Law. Look it up.

BUT, ice melt has been one of those things on which the models have generally been too conservative. It's actually disappearing faster than predicted a few years back, particularly in the Arctic. At the rate it's melting, it's not outside the realm of possibility we could have a nearly ice free Arctic summer within a very short time. Like, within my lifetime.

I'm 30, by the way.
Is it possible that the reduction of ice in the Arctic and the increase of ice in the Antarctic region are related? Is it possible?
 

AUDub

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Is it possible that the reduction of ice in the Arctic and the increase of ice in the Antarctic region are related? Is it possible?
Yes. Both reflect warming. This may seem counter-intuitive at first glance, but let me explain.

It's a fact that Antarctica has seen record gains in levels of sea ice, but keep in mind that both Arctic and global sea ice have seen record lows recently and continue to trend downward at an alarming rate. The major difference between the two poles is that the South Pole sits upon a landmass.

The explanation for Antarctic ice gains is that, as ice on top of the landmass melts and flows into the ocean, the salinity of the ocean in region is reduced. This raises the freezing point of the water in the area. Since the heat requirement for thawing changes, you'll see gains as long as this continues. But that also means the effect is only temporary.

Were Antarctica like the Artic, the situations would be more similar. Since there's a continent under all of that ice, the dynamics and time scales will be different, but as warming continues, the end result will be the same.
 
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CajunCrimson

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Yes. Both reflect warming. This may seem counter-intuitive at first glance, but let me explain.

It's a fact that Antarctica has seen record gains in levels of sea ice, but keep in mind that both Arctic and global sea ice have seen record lows recently and continue to trend downward at an alarming rate. The major difference between the two poles is that the South Pole sits upon a landmass.

The explanation for Antarctic ice gains is that, as ice on top of the landmass melts and flows into the ocean, the salinity of the ocean in region is reduced. This raises the freezing point of the water in the area. Since the heat requirement for thawing changes, you'll see gains as long as this continues. But that also means the effect is only temporary.

Were Antarctica like the Artic, the situations would be more similar. Since there's a continent under all of that ice, the dynamics and time scales will be different, but as warming continues, the end result will be the same.
OR, it could results from a slight fluctuation in the axis of the planet.....

This causes one pole to be directed toward the Sun on one side of the orbit, and the other pole on the other side — the cause of the seasons on the Earth. Earth's obliquity oscillates between 22.1 and 24.5 degrees on a 41,000-year cycle. It is currently 23.44 degrees and decreasing.
Maybe that could cause the shift in ice....from one pole to the other.
 

AUDub

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I totally understand the difference.
Apologies! I misunderstood. I though you were asking why the climate models wouldn't be able to pick out specific random weather events like Hurricanes.

What I'm trying to explain to you. Is that you are saying provable science (Meteorology) isn't predictable with 100% accuracy - but unprovable science (Climatology) is 100% accurate.
Meteorology is no more provable than climatology. Each has uncertainty, but the uncertainties are different. The timescales are also different, but each bears fruit given time.

Funny how you dismiss things like paleo-climatology in it's entirety, too. And it's tested and verified every day!

And you're arguing with a strawman. Nobody said anything about 100% accuracy.

Like the old saying goes: All models, including hurricane models, are by definition wrong. But that does not mean they are not useful.

Climate models are just that - computer based models that can't predict anything with any accuracy. Hurricane Models - which use computer based predictions all offer different outcomes...and aren't near 100% accurate.
As I said, each has uncertainty, but the uncertainties are very different. Similar to comparing things like air dispersion modelling, hydrodynamic modelling or the modelling of fluids over foils. So we don't know what course all of the variables will take yet. The point is not to just throw up our hands and walk away! The theory is about discerning the larger patterns and envelopes within which those variables manifest. Even if you cannot predict exactly what value a chaotic variable will have a a given time, you may be able to produce statistics about the ranges of values it may take.

Weather is chaotic, and as you seem to understand, it’s hard to project weather out beyond a couple of weeks because the chaotic effects begin to dominate. Climate is less dominated by these factors, because it’s looking at the broad envelope which is being predicted, not the day to day details. That is, unlike weather predictions, climate models seek to describe the ranges within which chaos will operate, which is a very different question. There’s not sharp cutoff - year to year values have more chaotic effects than decade to decade which is less than century to century. That's why models are typically on the 5, 10, 30, 50 or 100 year range.

You are talking in circles....because you are using circle logic......
That's not how circular logic works.
 
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CajunCrimson

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That's not how circular logic works.
Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true
Actually, with Global Warming - that fits perfectly
 

CajunCrimson

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I do have another question for the Global Warming Alarmists.....

Why do you care if Global Warming will cause the destruction of the planet in 100 years?
 

AUDub

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So, Is it your contention that there was not a widespread consensus that the Earth might be entering a new ice age in the 1960-70's timeframe? If so, that is an odd assertion.
We had this discussion a few pages ago, man. Here you go:

With regards to the topic.....I would love to know how many scientists in the 70s thought we were headed to another ice age.
A minority, as any review of the published scientific literature from that period would reveal. The consensus opinion supported a warming trend.

This link sums it up pretty well. I liked their conclusion enough to quote it here:

There was never scientific consensus that the Earth was cooling. That is a myth. That's not to say that there weren't alarmists forecasting doom. Some did; they just weren't scientists. Those people also weren't helping anything. Climate change deserves honest discourse from both sides of the political spectrum. The Left's alarmism may be as equally counterproductive as the Right's denialism. Climate change is real and something needs to be done about it. To find a solution we need to strip away biases, do away with petty point-scoring, and recognize what we agree upon: a less polluted planet benefits everyone.
 
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