Germany/France negotiate cease fire in Ukraine
- Thread starter Displaced Bama Fan
- Start date
Agreed. But we have $18 trillion in national debt. Do we need to take on more for Europe's sovereignty?
They're always at war...
The Bavarians hate the Frogs and vice versa. I don't know why...
Well, if Germany and France are going to fight each other, Ukraine is the place to do it. If you do it in either of their home countries, things get broken and people get hurt. Better to fight it out in Ukraine where only Ukrainian things get broken.
Sometimes Europe's problems have a way of becoming our problems too. The real problem is striking the right balance with our response.
Ukraine discovers just how expensive a peace dividend can be.
The Ukrainian military has looked really really bad over the last year. Embarrassingly bad.
In the attached article, Ukrainian soldiers keep mentioning how many heavy weapons (tanks & arty) the Russian "separatists" have and that they are "better" than the heavy weapons the Ukrainians have. Well, they don't make T-72s in Donetsk or Lugansk, so where did these better heavy weapons come from?
At this point, if I was advising the Ukrainian President, I'd strongly recommend that he let go those portions of Donetsk and Lugansk. It would be like amputating a diseased limb. Let them go and keep the rest of the body alive.
Or, try to keep it all and end up killing the body.
Sad, but that's where they are today.
And, the EU told both sides there would be "serous consequences" if the ceasefire was violated. Well, the Russians have blatantly violated the ceasefire. I'd bet the EU is very angry. And they are drafting a letter to Putin explaining how angry they are with him.
The Ukrainian military has looked really really bad over the last year. Embarrassingly bad.
In the attached article, Ukrainian soldiers keep mentioning how many heavy weapons (tanks & arty) the Russian "separatists" have and that they are "better" than the heavy weapons the Ukrainians have. Well, they don't make T-72s in Donetsk or Lugansk, so where did these better heavy weapons come from?
At this point, if I was advising the Ukrainian President, I'd strongly recommend that he let go those portions of Donetsk and Lugansk. It would be like amputating a diseased limb. Let them go and keep the rest of the body alive.
Or, try to keep it all and end up killing the body.
Sad, but that's where they are today.
And, the EU told both sides there would be "serous consequences" if the ceasefire was violated. Well, the Russians have blatantly violated the ceasefire. I'd bet the EU is very angry. And they are drafting a letter to Putin explaining how angry they are with him.
I'm just glad Germany and France are no longer fighting, no matter where the cease fire was negotiated.
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Yeah, when you need to surrender nobody can advise you better than the French.
I'm sure the terms involve grabbing ankles.
I'm sure the terms involve grabbing ankles.
Ukraine military says Russian tanks, missile systems (continue to) cross border.
This a more than a little bit troubling.
I would have bet Putin would be willing, at this point, to freeze this conflict like so many others, to keep a leverage point against the Ukrainians. The idea being that you freeze the conflict here, and then, at some future date, if the Ukrainians do something you don't like, you whip up some ethnic conflict "spontaneously" in Donetsk & Lugansk, to "remind" the Ukrainians that you still hold significant portion of their country and are willing to re-ignite the conflict if the Ukrainians do not play ball in the issue at hand.
If so, why would he continue to ship heavy weapons into Donetsk & Lugansk? This may presage some additional fighting.
The Ukrainians have not shown much ability to stop it thus far, so maybe Vlad is feeling a little confident and wants some more eastern Ukrainians real estate.
This a more than a little bit troubling.
I would have bet Putin would be willing, at this point, to freeze this conflict like so many others, to keep a leverage point against the Ukrainians. The idea being that you freeze the conflict here, and then, at some future date, if the Ukrainians do something you don't like, you whip up some ethnic conflict "spontaneously" in Donetsk & Lugansk, to "remind" the Ukrainians that you still hold significant portion of their country and are willing to re-ignite the conflict if the Ukrainians do not play ball in the issue at hand.
If so, why would he continue to ship heavy weapons into Donetsk & Lugansk? This may presage some additional fighting.
The Ukrainians have not shown much ability to stop it thus far, so maybe Vlad is feeling a little confident and wants some more eastern Ukrainians real estate.
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It's looking more and more that the Russkies want ALL of Ukraine, not just Crimea and the border areas. I wonder if that's where the plan stops or if more is on the agenda. The reality is the world doesn't really want to stand toe-to-toe with the Soviet Union (may as well call them what they are, or appear to be trying to be)...
13yrs of combat operations is the middle east and Afghanistan will do that. I don't really know what the answer is at this point. Half of me says we should arm the Ukrainians to make it a fair fight. The other half of me knows the some of weapons they need (i.e. missiles) aren't the kind of things you just want to let loose in todays world with no guarantee what will happen to them.
Not sure about the missiles, but they do need arty and tanks. The problem is the Ukrainian defense department is currently set up with Soviet stuff (T-72s, BMPs & BTRs). Give them our stuff (some M-1, Bradleys, 155mm "NATO" arty etc.) and you have instant problems with training, and shortly thereafter, with ammo, and then with repair parts and mechanics that know how to fix the stuff.
The one good thing about the Russians pretending they are not invading is that the "separatists" currently have no air force and once one shows up, everyone will ask, "Where did these MiGs come from?" This will make it harder for the Russians to deny involvement.
Yeah and you'd have US troops on the ground doing said training at that point.
The only reason I said missile is I've read they requested anti tank missiles. I've also seen that they have artillery, but need radar to track incoming rounds because they don't have the capability to return fire accurately.
The Soviets had some difficulty with the Ukrainians in World War II, particularly the UPA ( Українська Повстанська Армія or Ukrainian Insurgent Army).
The Holodomor (Soviet terror famine) in the 1930s killed 4 million Ukrainians through deliberate starvation (something the New York Times Moscow correspondent Walter Duranty knew about and covered up), and, in 1941, when the Nazis rolled into town, the Ukrainians were happy to see anyone who would fight the Bolsheviks. That soured and eventually the UPA started fighting against the Wehrmacht, and, when they got close enough, the Red Army as well.
Ukrainians today remember the Holodomor and the Russians remember the UPA. Occupying the Russian-heavy eastern oblasts might be possible. Occupying the Ukrainian-majority parts of Ukraine will be costly for the Russians. Putin has to know this.
Why do you think we went into Iraq and Afghanistan to begin with? The Chinese got all the oil & mineral mining contracts.Perhaps, we need a strong military to defend ourselves from creditors.
Okay, gotcha. Yeah, they could probably use some AT missiles. and the benefit is that these tend to be self-contained. You don't have to retool your whole military to use them and lots of countries have them. Milan, TOW, Spigot, etc. Lots of different AT missiles out there.
That is a little more complicated. Target Acquisition batteries are more difficult to operate and integrating these with friendly firing batteries takes lots of detailed training.
The US got really good at this by the early 1990s, but Id bet most US arty units have lost the skill (and are scrambling to get it back).
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