Article: Immigration and the Health of a Nation

crimsonaudio

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Some might have noticed I've changed my stance on a few things over the years - much of that comes from essentially removing politics from my life. I found that, at least for me personally, my ideological political beliefs of how the country should be run had me acting in defiance of my Christian beliefs. I found politics to be overly divisive. I had to decide, and I chose to ignore the man-made game of politics and follow my heart, hopefully finding myself to be more Christ-like in my approach to life.

That said, this article perfectly summarizes my current beliefs on immigration. Those beliefs fly in the face of how I've historically felt, but I'm comfortable with where my heart is now. I'm not wanting a theocracy, I just want to live in a manner that loves people the way I feel I'm supposed to.

Anyway, just wanted to share. Love this part in particular:

You want to know whether the arrow is pointing up or down for our society? Here’s your leading indicator: How do we treat the poor? The immigrant (legal or not)? Do we elect leaders who will do anything to increase our consumeristic zeal and lust for cash? Or do we elect leaders with the vision to help us become less focused on wealth production and consumption, and more focused on the flourishing of the most vulnerable among us.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/paperbacktheology/2015/03/immigration-and-the-health-of-a-nation.html
 

Tide1986

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Of course we don't want to be a closed society...seems self-evident to me that we aren't and that the vast vast majority of us don't want it to be closed.

Also, we do want to be a society based on the rule of law...it's what separates us from most of the world and makes us the greatest nation on Earth.

It is a gross misunderstanding to interpret disagreement over the non-enforcement of immigration laws as being anti-immigrant or anti-immigration.
 

cbi1972

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Immigration is the area where I've moved farthest libertarian. Not because I think we owe people from other countries anything, but because I think strong immigration leads to a strong economy.
Of course we don't want to be a closed society...seems self-evident to me that we aren't and that the vast vast majority of us don't want it to be closed.

Also, we do want to be a society based on the rule of law...it's what separates us from most of the world and makes us the greatest nation on Earth.

It is a gross misunderstanding to interpret disagreement over the non-enforcement of immigration laws as being anti-immigrant or anti-immigration.
Our national culture was built on immigrants, and I have zero interest in rounding up the quiet workers who are earning a living and keeping their head down in the workforce, or levying penalties against employers who make use of efficient, available labor.

I welcome immigrants who genuinely want a better life and are willing to work for it, even if they didn't jump through all the hoops to do it the right way.

End the silly war on drugs and a lot of these problems with the "wrong immigrants" associated with gangs and cartels go away.

I do have a practical (as opposed to ideological) concern though, that if there is amnesty for illegals and their presence is blessed officially, that the quiet, responsible ones may have lost an incentive to be quiet and responsible. We gain a good deal, in my opinion, from the existence of a black market for labor.
 

Bama Reb

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Of course we don't want to be a closed society...seems self-evident to me that we aren't and that the vast vast majority of us don't want it to be closed.

Also, we do want to be a society based on the rule of law...it's what separates us from most of the world and makes us the greatest nation on Earth.

It is a gross misunderstanding to interpret disagreement over the non-enforcement of immigration laws as being anti-immigrant or anti-immigration.
Agree completely. What must be understood above all else is that we can't, nor should we, pick and choose which laws we will obey and enforce and which ones we choose to ignore or disobey. This goes for all of us both as individuals and a a society in general, which includes our separate government branches and agencies.
To do otherwise sends a signal to everyone that laws don't matter. If our own government ignores or disobeys laws they themselves have enacted, why should we as individuals be or act any differently?
 

Jon

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Agree completely. What must be understood above all else is that we can't, nor should we, pick and choose which laws we will obey and enforce and which ones we choose to ignore or disobey. This goes for all of us both as individuals and a a society in general, which includes our separate government branches and agencies.
To do otherwise sends a signal to everyone that laws don't matter. If our own government ignores or disobeys laws they themselves have enacted, why should we as individuals be or act any differently?
as a country we have a solid history of not just ignoring bad laws but celebrating the fact that we ignore them. Prohibition first alcohol then drugs, blue laws, speeding, etc etc etc. Why should these laws be any different, it's not like they were placed there for good logical reasons
 

Bama Reb

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as a country we have a solid history of not just ignoring bad laws but celebrating the fact that we ignore them. Prohibition first alcohol then drugs, blue laws, speeding, etc etc etc. Why should these laws be any different, it's not like they were placed there for good logical reasons
OK. Fair enough. The next time I need a new car I'll just go steal one. While I'm at it, I might as well use it as my getaway car when I rob a bank.

Who are we to choose which laws are good and which are bad?
 

selmaborntidefan

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I'm sorry, folks, but I get more than a little wary of ANYBODY saying Jesus is on their side. This is NO REFLECTION on CA (for example), I'm referring to the guy who wrote the article. And I say that as an unabashed evangelical. I don't like it when Republicans do it for (or maybe more precisely AGAINST) abortion or gay rights, and I don't like it when Democrats invoke the Lord for immigration, either (or Republicans on immigration or the GNP for that matter).

I know Jon is an atheist, and I'll bet his distaste and mine for invoking Jesus into political discussions is about equal (and for probably close to the same reasons). This world will pass away and the same Jesus (assuming my evangelical views for a moment) who said to treat strangers hospitably is the same one who said to pay your taxes regardless of whether you agree with the government you have and to OBEY THE LAWS (and that would include those who came here illegally btw) and also inspired Paul to write that if you don't work you are not to eat (obviously assuming capacity to work).

I reiterate - I am referring to the AUTHOR of the piece, NOT to CA or any of my other brothers (or sisters) here.

I've always figured if God wanted to stop whatever right now that He's in the perfect position to do it. Nowhere did he tell me to stand in the way of some sinner running off to sin, but He did command love (which too many people confuse with "endorsement," which is hilarious since you can love your own child and despise that the child is, for example, a drug addict). Nowhere did he tell me to go get elected to office and impose some theocratic agenda on the state. (I expect such irrationality from the irreligious who act religious about their power - it's called human nature).
 

crimsonaudio

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I'm sorry, folks, but I get more than a little wary of ANYBODY saying Jesus is on their side.
I'm curious - while there seem to be plenty of scriptures that would lead me to believe that Tim's view is biblical, I can't readily think of any that suggest I should follow the will of man instead of God's commandments. Nor do I find examples of Jesus turning away those in need, even the sinners. It begs the question - how do you honestly think Jesus would feel about immigration, specifically deportation, splitting up families, etc?

Not being combative here, but care to enlighten me on how Tim has this so wrong?

I've known Tim Suttle for a couple of decades now - he's actually a pretty close friend of mine - so I know his heart well. He simply wants to do God's will.
 

cbi1972

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I'm curious - while there seem to be plenty of scriptures that would lead me to believe that Tim's view is biblical, I can't readily think of any that suggest I should follow the will of man instead of God's commandments. Nor do I find examples of Jesus turning away those in need, even the sinners. It begs the question - how do you honestly think Jesus would feel about immigration, specifically deportation, splitting up families, etc?

Not being combative here, but care to enlighten me on how Tim has this so wrong?

I've known Tim Suttle for a couple of decades now - he's actually a pretty close friend of mine - so I know his heart well. He simply wants to do God's will.
I am no biblical scholar, but what I would expect from Jesus is uncomfortable truth, at least about how we should treat each other.
 

Jon

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OK. Fair enough. The next time I need a new car I'll just go steal one. While I'm at it, I might as well use it as my getaway car when I rob a bank.

Who are we to choose which laws are good and which are bad?
are you going to say you never break a law, ever? Never speed, never drink a beer or cocktail at an Alabama tailgate? never bring a flask of something into the stadium, park anywhere you shouldn't etc? If you do you are already choosing which laws are good and bad, we all do it.
 

bama_wayne1

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I don't think Sodom was destroyed for not allowing illegal aliens in, rather they were trying to force them to have sex with them. Or am I missing something? My idea of the love that the Bible teaches is that we want the best for others. Even those that we don't agree with. While we may or may not agree with immigration or other laws that are passed in our country I don't want the people I love breaking laws because of the consequences of such actions. I do believe that we should feed and care for all people in need but I don't believe the Bible condones law breaking except where it directly interferes with God's law. There is a legal way to enter our country and that should be what we would desire for anyone we love until we can effect changes to the laws we don't like. JMHO
 

TheAccountant

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I don't think anyone in this discussion is wanting a theocracy.
Not too far away when you start advocating for politicians to ask WWJD and quotes like these while criticizing those you disagree with:

How do we know this? We look the other side—the side they are trying their best to crush & defeat—and if that’s where the scriptures stand, if that’s where Jesus stands, and if that’s where faithfulness stands, if that’s where ‘the least of these’ stand, then one must be on the wrong side. One can cite economic statistics all you want, and the scriptures will simply reply, “What does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God.”



 

crimsonaudio

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Not too far away when you start advocating for politicians to ask WWJD and quotes like these while criticizing those you disagree with:
Not all politicians, but those who proclaim their Christianity publicly. I'd find it odd if there were Christian politicians who didn't use the bible to shape their thoughts, just as I'd expect a mormon to reference the book of mormon and a muslim to to reference the quran.

Not the same thing as advocating all should do that.
 

cbi1972

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Not all politicians, but those who proclaim their Christianity publicly. I'd find it odd if there were Christian politicians who didn't use the bible to shape their thoughts, just as I'd expect a mormon to reference the book of mormon and a muslim to to reference the quran.

Not the same thing as advocating all should do that.
I'd find it odd if they didn't pander to their base, and around here, a lot of times that means stirring up the holy rollers.
 

Bama Reb

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are you going to say you never break a law, ever? Never speed, never drink a beer or cocktail at an Alabama tailgate? never bring a flask of something into the stadium, park anywhere you shouldn't etc? If you do you are already choosing which laws are good and bad, we all do it.
No, I'm not saying that at all. At the same time though, I don't blow through stop signs and red lights. Neither do I completely ignore speed limit signs. Stretch them a bit, yes, but not ignore. And I never, ever drive while or after I've been drinking.
If we all were to go along with what you seem to be advocating though, we might as well scrap our entire way of ''government''. Each person for themselves, to do as they wish, regardless of any perceived consequences, because there aren't any.
 

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