2015 Spring Practice Thread

bama579

Hall of Fame
Jan 15, 2005
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The Chukker or Archibalds
To expand on Earle's post: I was fortunate enough to discuss this very issue with Joe Kines at an alumni event.

Kines said the timing of the look back, and whether to do so at all, should depend on the defensive position of the DB.

The phrase Kines used was, "in phase." He said that if the DB is in phase with the WR, he should look back when the receiver does. If he's not, even if it's by only a half- or even quarter-step, the DB shouldn't look back, but should try to disrupt the catch. Failing that, he's still in position to make the tackle after the catch.

Reason being, if the DB isn't in phase, and looks back anyway, the distance between himself and the WR invariably increases. In other words, the DB exacerbates the problem.

Compounding that, if he's the last line of defense -- i.e., there's no deep help behind him -- you risk turning a 15 yard gainer into a TD.

The definition of "in phase" was more complicated than I ever would have thought. It had to do not only with being on the receiver, but also figured in the DB's hip and shoulder position relative to the WR and other stuff that was honestly lost on me.

But for the average fan, of you think of "in phase" as "having really good coverage," you'll have the concept.

Kines also said this was about the hardest technical thing to teach the freshmen. To that point in their athletic careers, they have always been head-and-shoulders the best player on the field. They've been able to make up for suboptimal technique with sheer ability and speed.

So they have a really hard time admitting, even to themselves, that the WR got the better of them, even if by only a hair.

Unfortunately for them, SEC receivers eat that for breakfast. Some learn after being burned a couple of times in practice. Others have to get their pants yanked down in a game. Still others never really do.

What I took away from Kines' explanation was that whether and when to look back is a lot more complicated than many of us ever thought.
Thank/Like
 

gman4tide

All-SEC
Nov 21, 2005
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Eh, if i was an opposing offense next year, I'd tell the ref to just make it 3rd and 16 every play. The Tide owned everyone on first and second down. Only got in trouble on 3rd and longs.
 

CrimsonPassion

1st Team
Jun 6, 2009
637
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Attalla, AL
Eh, if i was an opposing offense next year, I'd tell the ref to just make it 3rd and 16 every play. The Tide owned everyone on first and second down. Only got in trouble on 3rd and longs.
Amen!! I've actually noticed this for a couple of years now. Third downs always make me cringe. I tell my dad that the other team doesn't have to worry about how long that down might be. They just convert one right after the other. All Anthony Jennings had to do last year was take off and run. All Mauk had to do was scramble and heave it as far as he could. I hope the guys learn that if you can't stop a team on third down, what you did on first and second down means nothing!!
 

Rama Jama

All-American
Jan 4, 2011
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Our problems last year were related to injuries and the fact we were weak up the middle. Trey Depriest could not stay with receivers or tight ends, much less RB's out of the backfield which hurt us mightily. We'll be much better physically from that point of view this year assuming Reuben learns to keep his head up and make the proper reads. Our safeties were decent but not the most fleet afoot. We cheated out safeties to help the CB's on the outside trying to stop all those long passes and OSU beat us over the middle. The spread offenses make it much harder than ever to read the correct route when the receiver has different options on every play. On top of that almost all receivers are bigger than the DB's they are playing against. If you look at most of those long passes, many of them were 50/50 balls that the DB just didn't play correctly.
 

gamersfuel

All-American
Jan 20, 2008
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Auburn/near a cow pasture
as far as the secondary goes, it's not about always having an "NFL" corner. I watch tons of college football and see players that wouldnt even sniff it here as a walkon lock in and knock the ball away. it's not about the players. thats just the way they are coached IMO..I wish it was a different philosophy and maybe it will be this year.
 

Chukker Veteran

Hall of Fame
Feb 6, 2001
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I still don't like the fact that our DB's don't turn their head and find the ball. The receivers they're defending turn their heads to find the ball every single pass play and it doesn't seem to be slowing them down too much.
It seems to me that it's harder for a defender to look back while in full stride than it is for the receiver because the defender is trying to locate the ball and keep up or keep step with the receiver (he's tracking two things at once)...while the receiver isn't as much focused on where the defender is...he can concentrate of the ball location and just catch it.

P.S., haven't posted any lately...the board is sure acting odd while I'm trying to make this post.
 

gtowntide

All-American
Mar 1, 2011
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Guys why would Coach Saban forget how to coach DB's when we've had shut down corners on previous teams? I did not like the way we defended long passes last year, but we have to give these players a little time to develop. I look for the secondary to be a strength this year.
If Wisconsin wants to throw long early, I say "bring it" because we're going to be OK.
 

gtgilbert

All-American
Aug 12, 2011
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Guys why would Coach Saban forget how to coach DB's when we've had shut down corners on previous teams? I did not like the way we defended long passes last year, but we have to give these players a little time to develop. I look for the secondary to be a strength this year.
If Wisconsin wants to throw long early, I say "bring it" because we're going to be OK.
with the situation at S, I'm not convinced the secondary will be a strength. S was really our biggest issue in coverage this year. LC is a great run stopper, but wasn't the best in coverage, and really Perry is also more of an SS than FS. There were also some major busts from the "smiths" in coverage swaps that cost us big, and looked like CB issues but were not because the CB should have had help or a swap.

I do think we'll see much better CB play though. C Jones was very, very good last year and if the other guys follow the normal Saban trajectory, we'll see a marked improvement. Everyone should look back at all those NFL first round pick corners first seasons as starters. All of them had some serious growing pains before becoming lockdown guys their second year as a starter. I'm sure we'll see that again this year.

As for looking back at the ball - others have already said it, but there's lots of times where you don't play the ball, you play the WRs eyes and hands and if in doubt, it's the eyes and hands.
 

Alasippi

Suspended
Aug 31, 2007
12,875
2
57
Ocean Springs, MS
It seems to me that it's harder for a defender to look back while in full stride than it is for the receiver because the defender is trying to locate the ball and keep up or keep step with the receiver (he's tracking two things at once)...while the receiver isn't as much focused on where the defender is...he can concentrate of the ball location and just catch it.

P.S., haven't posted any lately...the board is sure acting odd while I'm trying to make this post.
Yeah, I've had five or ten posts today that simply wouldn't go through. Maybe a server issue.
No clue with technology here.
 

REBELZED

All-American
Dec 6, 2006
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(1) Because that's how he explains it at coaching clinics, and to the press.
(2) Hmmm....maybe because he's egotistical and stubborn??
(3) See (2)
(4) Well think again. That's what they're being taught.
(5) Maybe that's because our secondary coach would rather convert a wide receiver to cornerback, or rehabiltate an injured cornerback, rather than simply playing the number one and two cornerback prospects in the nation. You'll have to ask Coach S. that question, because I have absolutley no idea.
(6) We've recruited the highest rated corners in the nation. We simply don't give them a chance to play. We like "Projects" for some reason. Again, I have no idea why. The talent is there.
Rant over here as well. :)
RTR
sip
Can anybody else corroborate or prove that our coaches are telling our CB's NOT to look for the ball if they're in position? I read as many articles and posts about Bama football as I can, and the only time I've seen it mentioned is by forum posters looking for something to complain about. I still find it incredibly hard to believe that it would be the case.

And would you really choose to play TWO TRUE FRESHMEN at CB? Let's just say I am thankful that Coach Saban is our coach and not you :) Like I said before, when the CB's from the last two classes are juniors and seniors, I have a funny feeling everyone will be talking about how awesome Coach Saban is at coaching DB's...
 

REBELZED

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2010: Kareeem Jackson (20th overall)
2012: Mark Barron (7th overall) Dre Kirkpatrick (17th overall)
2013: Dee Milliner (9th overall)

We can't lose one every year or we'd be so paper thin we would really get killed every year.

This last recruiting class we finally got some lockdown corners in Humphrey and Brown. They will be SICK once they gain enough experience.
None of those guys played for us in the last couple years ('13 or '14), which was exactly my point. We haven't had those type of players the last couple years, so naturally the results haven't been as good...
 

REBELZED

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as far as the secondary goes, it's not about always having an "NFL" corner. I watch tons of college football and see players that wouldnt even sniff it here as a walkon lock in and knock the ball away. it's not about the players. thats just the way they are coached IMO..I wish it was a different philosophy and maybe it will be this year.
I agree to a certain extent. I just think that our system gives our corners more responsibility than most and even Coach has said that can cause "paralysis by analysis." Hesitate for a split second and you're beat. Lose half a step and it's a TD for the bad guys, as we saw a lot this past year.

Could the scheme have potentially been adjusted to accommodate for not having NFL corners? Probably. But who are any of us to say that it wasn't?

That's my beef with some of these claims. The self-righteous assertion that our coaches aren't teaching the right technique is flat out ridiculous. As far as I know, none of us are out there on the practice field every day listening to what our coaches teach. So when someone claims #1) to know what our coaches are teaching and #2) that it's so obviously the wrong method, I have to roll my eyes :rolleyes:
 

TIDE-HSV

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Oct 13, 1999
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Saban actually teaches his methods for DB play at clinics and the like. Shelby's (4-B) analysis of Kines' remarks are very close to what he teaches. "In phase" simply means that the DB is stride for stride with the WR. However, if the DB is even slightly out of phase, looking back is simply fatal. Saban teaches, as do other competent coaches, that the defender loses at least a half step at the point, making it an exercise in futility. That's just the way it is. Unfortunately, if your DB is several inches shorter than the WR, he's usually beaten at that point. I really think that we just haven't had the talent level we've had in the past. Throwing Brown and Humph to the wolves would have cost us at least a couple of more games, IMO. In fact, Brown had to be pulled because he was getting burned regularly. He should be a different corner next season and Humphrey should have a year in the weight room and at practice under his belt...
 

Alasippi

Suspended
Aug 31, 2007
12,875
2
57
Ocean Springs, MS
Can anybody else corroborate or prove that our coaches are telling our CB's NOT to look for the ball if they're in position? I read as many articles and posts about Bama football as I can, and the only time I've seen it mentioned is by forum posters looking for something to complain about. I still find it incredibly hard to believe that it would be the case.

And would you really choose to play TWO TRUE FRESHMEN at CB? Let's just say I am thankful that Coach Saban is our coach and not you :) Like I said before, when the CB's from the last two classes are juniors and seniors, I have a funny feeling everyone will be talking about how awesome Coach Saban is at coaching DB's...
Brown and Humphrey, two Olympic capable track stars, over and injured Eddie Jackson, and a converted wide out in Cyrus Jones? In less than a heartbeat I would. I wouldn't hesitate for two seconds.
 

markenk

1st Team
Aug 3, 2003
903
0
0
England
I think this is really a spot-on remark. DBs under Saban system have to be extremely physical at the point of attack to keep the QB-WR rhythm off-balance. Cyrus has become such a player during this past season, but we need to find another who can man the the the opposite corner position. If you look at all of our "shutdown" corners in the past 4-5 years, all of them have been very physical - highlighted by Dee Milliner.

I would also like to say that the a lot of long balls thrown against us successfully were impeccably accurate throws by the opposing QB in terms of the level of football (Collegiate).
 

gtgilbert

All-American
Aug 12, 2011
3,163
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Brown and Humphrey, two Olympic capable track stars, over and injured Eddie Jackson, and a converted wide out in Cyrus Jones? In less than a heartbeat I would. I wouldn't hesitate for two seconds.
Well, Saban tried with Brown, and it didn't pan out all that well and he lost the spot back to Jackson. I certainly wouldn't lump C jones into the discussion either. In 13 he was still coming up over the learning curve and wasn't quite there yet, but in 14 he was very solid.
 

CrimsonEyeshade

Hall of Fame
Nov 6, 2007
5,409
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Brown and Humphrey, two Olympic capable track stars, over and injured Eddie Jackson, and a converted wide out in Cyrus Jones? In less than a heartbeat I would. I wouldn't hesitate for two seconds.
Sip, we may be pulling for the same team, but we were watching two different ones play. Cyrus was our best defensive player, period, the second half of the season. You're ignoring reality to make your point.
 

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