Baltimore protests / riots (was: Orioles COO John Angelos offers perspective...)

Re: Baltimore

selmaborntidefan said:

Just to make clear two things. Obviously, I was NOT directing my fire at CA (whom I respect even on those rare occasions I disagree with - and it's not even that I disagree with him in all the details here) but at Obama's remarks and secondly, while I was intending to be flip and a bit shocking, the VERY IDEA that this country has turned its back on this element of society is laughably absurd. You know why I get sick of hearing about the poor and underprivileged in this country? It's because our country has the richest "poor" in the world and we dole out things for them that often make them live "better" than the middle class guy/girl who actually has to pay for medical coverage (for example).

Those poor were poor BEFORE Freddie Gray died - I didn't see them rioting THEN. They'll be poor next week or at least until the shamed Republicans join the party of Tax the Rich Not Named Us and throw federal monies at it.

And furthermore I would hope everyone would keep an open mind and wait. If the Trayvon Martin thread should have taught us ANYTHING, it is that we need to wait until making a judgment either way. Maybe this is my lab and (to a smaller degree as it was only introductory) pathology training dominating my personality. In medicine, we play hunches and we adjust as need be TO THE EVIDENCE. This whole thing has sounded strange from the get-go. I have in no way gone after Freddie Gray's rap sheet (which I was aware of) because even if everything there is true, it does NOT justify police brutality.

By the same token, NOTHING justifies a riot, not even the weasel words of the nation's leading community instigator. (Why is anyone surprised at this absurd empty suit's justification that's not "really" a justification of the hood?). (And btw - don't forget that those same Democrats who start whining about this stuff send their kids to private schools and live in their own gated communities all while pretending to give a damn). I'm not taking a side here yet because I want to know what the autopsy and patient history show - medicine again, which is why I wound up taking Zimmerman's side in the Trayvon case (because I read the forensics) and siding with the cop in the Michael Brown case (which we later learned had a lot of made up eyewitness crap).

A black friend of mine at work and I talk about this stuff. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we disagree. But he did say something profound. He's fifty years old so he was born during the civil rights era. He tells me over and over he was told by his parents that if a cop stops you and makes demands and talks to you as if you're DWB, just say, 'Yes sir' and give him what he asks for and keep your hands visible.

And the simple truth is that while there is the occasional renegade cop with a John McClain complex, it's no different than any other occupation. There are lousy lawyers, lousy doctors, lousy lab techs, and lousy cops. But the fact is that in most of these cases if the suspects would simply go quietly rather than channel their inner Jimmy Cagney, nothing would happen to them.

Click to expand...

CNN is probably the biggest problem. There are always two sides of the story, whether right or wrong, but you need to hear both sides to come up with a logical conclusion. In the Michael Brown incident, CNN pumped his friend's story and that girl's story so much that people came up with conclusions in the first 5 minutes of it being reported. I by no means beleive Darren Wilson is a knight in shining armor cop, but you heard very little about his side. Then you had the President, Al Sharpton, and just about anyone getting involved in a case that they didnt have the facts about. I think Missouri handles their problems in the wrong way. They have a big drug city in KC and a huge violent crime city in St Louis, and they have an undermanned police force to go along with it. The Missouri govt shouldve been more involved to try to calm the people's emotions from the get go.

As for the Baltimore riot I really chalk it up to the people are just doing it because Fergueson did it. Today's youth love the idea of the fall of society. It can be clearly seen in movies, tv shows, and literature. I really think Racism isnt the overall cause behind this as much as a crutch to justify it. Rioting wont solve the problem it only shows that this generation is getting more and more irrational in behaivor.

Re: Baltimore

I can't disagree with much of what you've said here.

My position has very recently become this: There are real problems in the black community. There are real problems in the police community. There are real problems with some of our laws. There are real problems with bias in enforcement of those laws. There are real problems for which society as a whole is to blame. There are real problems for which certain communities like cops or people of color or the poor themselves are to blame. There are problems for which individuals are to blame. Each person, each group, and society as a whole has to look at its own problems and what it can do to fix them beginning with its own self. Obviously there will be some overlap and that's not an excuse to pull out the old "judge not" card.

But I firmly believe that if we don't stop merely pointing the finger at the other guy and if we don't work together to admit problems and work on solutions then bad things are going to happen worse than we've seen to this point in all these riots. IOW, it's going to turn ugly unless we prevent that.

There's no one solution. There's no one group to pin blame on. Either emotions rule the day or logic the acts of love do.

I don't mean that to sound hokey or naive or pollyanna-ish. But we have to get past the single incidents and our gut reactions to them. (not accusing you or anyone in particular of that). We have to get past our biases. All of us.

P.S. Waiting on evidence is racist.
P.P.S. Telling a black person to remain calm, be respectful, and work it out peaceably is racist, even if I (a white person) was told the same thing by my dad and now tell my kids the same thing).
P.P.P.S. Focusing on myself, I have been to quick to judge in favor of the police in the past. The above was my commentary on problems elsewhere, NTTAWWT.

TIDE-HSV said:

SIAP:

LINK

Click to expand...

Very interesting read.

So, does being in the middle class lead to a sense of respectability, or does a sense of respectability serve as a preexisting enabler to help lift one into he middle class? Of course the author assumes the former.

TIDE-HSV said:

Perhaps it develops as one is able to climb into the middle class. BTW, I know plenty of working class (the "working" part is important) who are as respectable as any middle class white people...

Click to expand...

I've read about half of it - good article, Earle.

I read a good bit of it, actually, and have explored some of the topics extensively in my own research and in speaking with others about these issues.

I think it works both ways, much like a positive feedback loop and doesn't stop with one generation. That can work for the better or for worse.

Just very recently I saw an elderly woman, poor to lower middle class and her adult child, who was wearing a military uniform. For a brief few moments my mind wondered about the conditions in which the "child" grew up, what job they might hold, the things learned wearing that uniform, the work ethic, the potential economic opportunities that may be open to them now. how their children might have even more opportunities open to them because of the choices the parent made, how these things work over generations. How I might be completely off my rocker and totally wrong about the assumptions I made based on a quick glance. And then I went right back to work and prayed for the next few hours to pass so I could get some much needed sleep (I made it through and got some sleep. Yay!).

Being born with a default "norm" as you grow up gives you a baseline. Just a confidence increases with success, so does a "sense of respectability". I don't like that term as it seems too demeaning to me (seems to imply that being poor is not respectable, but I am splitting hairs) and prefer to use another. Maybe "sense of accomplishment" or "sense of acceptedness" or even "sense of respectedness" (as in being respected by others or yourself without regard to either inherent or earned "respectability").

The quickest way to enable a people to prosperity is through employment and other economic opportunities such as entrepreneurship. To sustain prosperity you need education. The wealthier you are, the healthier you are, generally speaking.

Rudolf Ludwig Carl Virchow is a personal favorite person for me. Not only the father of modern pathology, but also the founder of social medicine stemming from his work in Upper Silesia (Germany) during a a typhoid outbreak there. Much of his recommended action to resolve and prevent such epidemics was centered on socioeconomic condition present there and how improving those conditions would prevent disease.

A quote of his: "Medicine is a social science, and politics is nothing else but medicine on a large scale" As that applies here we are talking about the health of the community itself, be it in a state of malaise, depression, growth, thriving, and so on in a societal sense.

I highly recommend at least being familiar with his work and theories as well as his philosophical musings.

ETA: On a personal note I have "risen" from my parents having a 3rd and 6th grade education to having a graduate degree, from low middle class or poor (especially after my dad lost his job of 17 years when I was 13) to making a being prosperous enough, from having a feeling that others were higher or different somehow and even being told "you'll never do x.." to proving them wrong and gaining a lot of confidence and (strangely enough) humility in the process. Perhaps that is the "sense of respectability" they are talking about as I can speak with doctors and lawyers and bankers and others without feeling intimidated most times.
I look at the people "at the bottom" economically - those cleaning the floors and bathrooms - with respect and understanding that I could be doing that and could be there economically. I feel really strange about it all if you didn't pick up on that already because it's very new to me.

TIDE-HSV said:

SIAP:

LINK

Click to expand...

interesting, now i get to spend some time today thinking about riots at an orthodontist convention

Gr8hope said:

Freddie Gray Allegedly Had Spine Surgery Just One Week Before Arrest.

http://thefourthestate.co/2015/04/b...ad-spine-surgery-just-one-week-before-arrest/

"The Fourth Estate has contacted sources who allege that Freddie Gray received spinal and neck surgery a week before we was arrested, and was allegedly receiving a large structured settlement from Allstate Insurance. The surgery is allegedly related to a car accident in which Gray was involved.
Sources allege that Gray also attempted to refinance his structured settlement into one lump sum payment through Peachtree Funding.
If this is true, then it is possible that Gray’s spinal injury resulting from his encounter with the Baltimore Police was not the result of rough-handling or abuse, but rather a freak accident that occurred when Gray should have been at home resting, not selling drugs."

If this is, which I cannot confirm, it's a good thing the folks waited for the truth to come out in the investigation before things got ugly.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying this is wrong but it sure SOUNDS like a right-wing narrative to me to justify it.

Let's see some actual data - anyone can write a fictional novel, right or left.

TIDE-HSV said:

BTW, thanks for reading my link, as apparently no one else has. A shame...

Click to expand...

I read it and made no comment as it made a lot of sense.

Gr8hope said:

Freddie Gray Allegedly Had Spine Surgery Just One Week Before Arrest.

http://thefourthestate.co/2015/04/b...ad-spine-surgery-just-one-week-before-arrest/

"The Fourth Estate has contacted sources who allege that Freddie Gray received spinal and neck surgery a week before we was arrested, and was allegedly receiving a large structured settlement from Allstate Insurance. The surgery is allegedly related to a car accident in which Gray was involved.
Sources allege that Gray also attempted to refinance his structured settlement into one lump sum payment through Peachtree Funding.
If this is true, then it is possible that Gray’s spinal injury resulting from his encounter with the Baltimore Police was not the result of rough-handling or abuse, but rather a freak accident that occurred when Gray should have been at home resting, not selling drugs."

If this is, which I cannot confirm, it's a good thing the folks waited for the truth to come out in the investigation before things got ugly.

Click to expand...

If that is true it certainly changes things a bit. No one else seems to be reporting on it yet however.

Need more mothers like this:

City Councilman Carl Stokes explodes on CNN, saying if you're going to call them thugs, you might as well call them the "n" word. The "t" word is the new "n" word. I won't link the YouTube video due to board decorum.

Re: Baltimore

Displaced Bama Fan said:

The man they are burning down Baltimore for...

Again, I don't agree with what happened to him, and in no way does his rap sheet warrant him dying, but he damn sure wasn't some angel the agitators are making him out to be either.

http://clashdaily.com/2015/04/fredd...f-the-dude-theyre-destroying-baltimore-over/#

Who knows what his juvenile record looks like.

Click to expand...

Speaks volumes about our disfunctional justice system. 14 arrests for distribution of narcotics and he's still on the streets. What does it take for him to be considered as a menace to society and put away?

Re: Baltimore

TommyMac said:

Speaks volumes about our disfunctional justice system. 14 arrests for distribution of narcotics and he's still on the streets. What does it take for him to be considered as a menace to society and put away?

Click to expand...

Bad arrests?

TIDE-HSV said:

The Fourth Estate article has already been debunked. The lawsuit they references was really a lawsuit involving a structured settlement the family had earlier won against their landlord over lead paint not having been removed. Allstate, as insurer for the landlord was an interested party in the present suit. So far, there's just no evidence that Gray had surgery...

Click to expand...

that doesn't seem to stop the speculation.

TIDE-HSV said:

SIAP:

LINK

Click to expand...

Fascinating, thanks.