SCOTUS Irony re: Gay Marriage

BamaFlum

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Let's just remove "marriage" from the government vernacular and go to civil unions. That would satisfy the laws and 90% of the faith based opposition. Let the churches "marry" folks and also have the state create a "union."


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seebell

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If it's that simple, then why couldn't you have two wives. Think about it...
You can't have two wives because the state doesn't allow it. The state allows you to get married without religion involved. But you can't get married without the state involved.

You can have a mistress however if your wife doesn't know!:biggrin:
 

TIDE-HSV

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Let's just remove "marriage" from the government vernacular and go to civil unions. That would satisfy the laws and 90% of the faith based opposition. Let the churches "marry" folks and also have the state create a "union."


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That's basically what the act introduced today does, as I understand it...
 

TIDE-HSV

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You can't have two wives because the state doesn't allow it. The state allows you to get married without religion involved. But you can't get married without the state involved.
And the state doesn allow it because Catholic/Protestant tradition says it's not allowed - one man, one woman. It's strictly religious. There is no other reason...
 

Crimson1967

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All couples, no matter how the union was ordained, say they are married. Atheists say they are married. No one is going to say they are civil unioned.
 

TideEngineer08

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I guess I am confused. Several posters here have said that marriage is a religious covenant. I have never looked at it that way. Marriage is a legal contract sanctioned by the state is it not? If I get married in a church ceremony but don't have a marriage license I am not legally married. In contrast I can get married without a church or religious ceremony and be legally married a la the courthouse.

So how is marriage the province of the religious? I was married 39 years ago under a tree in Big Spring Park. I did have a mail order minister. Kahil Gibran poetry.
It is a religious covenant. For me, it certainly is. I regard the bond between my wife and I as something spiritual that God ordained and it is far more important to me in that regard than any piece of paper I got from the state. The paper may burn and the state could say hey, that contract is no longer valid, and we would still be married.

Of course, for others, religion or spirituality has nothing to do with it. I agree with TIDE-HSV and uafan4life. I'd much rather the state get out of marriage altogether. Let churches do as their belief allows. Some churches will marry homosexuals, some won't. Or, let the Supreme Court rule that it is legal. However... I would strongly be against any such ruling that required churches to go against their beliefs. At that point, we might as well just throw away the 1st Amendment and be done with it.
 

TIDE-HSV

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It is a religious covenant. For me, it certainly is. I regard the bond between my wife and I as something spiritual that God ordained and it is far more important to me in that regard than any piece of paper I got from the state. The paper may burn and the state could say hey, that contract is no longer valid, and we would still be married.

Of course, for others, religion or spirituality has nothing to do with it. I agree with TIDE-HSV and uafan4life. I'd much rather the state get out of marriage altogether. Let churches do as their belief allows. Some churches will marry homosexuals, some won't. Or, let the Supreme Court rule that it is legal. However... I would strongly be against any such ruling that required churches to go against their beliefs. At that point, we might as well just throw away the 1st Amendment and be done with it.
That's pretty much the rule now. A priest, pastor or rabbi should be just in a different category from a shopkeeper. That really should be a 1st Amendment issue, as you indicate. If you'd asked me about five years ago, I'd've said that it was a settled issue. Scalia, of course, raised that bugaboo in orals the other day. Kagan disagreed. If the holding favors SS marriage, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the opinion didn't contain some legal limitations, to keep away from the 1st Amendment question in the future. In fact, the test case is already ready, out of Idaho, of all places. Coeur d'Alene has an ordinance requiring clergy of any sort to perform gay marriages. The owners of a wedding chapel (clergy!?!?) have been fined, for refusal to perform such. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a test case out of Alabama. Our statutes list who may perform marriages, not who must. Some judges of probate (Mobile) have declined to perform any marriages at all. This obviously raises the same issue. As I said, the supreme court may choose to solve this in advance, with a 1st Amendment protection built-in, if SS marriage is upheld. JMHO, but Kennedy's questioning didn't look good for SSM. OTOH, Roberts' questions showed some surprising twists. As I think I've said above, some place, at this point, I wouldn't be totally surprised by a decision favoring SSM, but with Roberts writing a separate, concurring opinion, based narrowly on sexual discrimination, rather than a broad constitutional right. Going to be interesting...
 

Displaced Bama Fan

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It is a religious covenant. For me, it certainly is. I regard the bond between my wife and I as something spiritual that God ordained and it is far more important to me in that regard than any piece of paper I got from the state. The paper may burn and the state could say hey, that contract is no longer valid, and we would still be married.

Of course, for others, religion or spirituality has nothing to do with it. I agree with TIDE-HSV and uafan4life. I'd much rather the state get out of marriage altogether. Let churches do as their belief allows. Some churches will marry homosexuals, some won't. Or, let the Supreme Court rule that it is legal. However... I would strongly be against any such ruling that required churches to go against their beliefs. At that point, we might as well just throw away the 1st Amendment and be done with it.
Wait, we still have a Constitution?
 

Bama Reb

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By triad, I was answering the wife, husband, SIL triad, not multiple wives...
We do share in a lot of ways, but the ''sexy'' is not one of them. As much as some think that would be a benefit, to us it is still cheating and is something neither I nor Mrs. Reb could ever do or condone being done. Although we have a triad living arrangement, our marriage remains as traditional as any other.
 

CajunCrimson

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We do share in a lot of ways, but the ''sexy'' is not one of them. As much as some think that would be a benefit, to us it is still cheating and is something neither I nor Mrs. Reb could ever do or condone being done. Although we have a triad living arrangement, our marriage remains as traditional as any other.
Ok, please explain because your last post was interesting.....
 

Bama Reb

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Ok, please explain because your last post was interesting.....
Simple. It's having to deal with the emotions and drama that one could expect from having two separate wives, and then having them live under the same roof, but confining the 'marital relations' to only one. The phrase I would use to describe it is "mentally challenging".
 
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Crimson1967

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That's pretty much the rule now. A priest, pastor or rabbi should be just in a different category from a shopkeeper. That really should be a 1st Amendment issue, as you indicate. If you'd asked me about five years ago, I'd've said that it was a settled issue. Scalia, of course, raised that bugaboo in orals the other day. Kagan disagreed. If the holding favors SS marriage, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the opinion didn't contain some legal limitations, to keep away from the 1st Amendment question in the future. In fact, the test case is already ready, out of Idaho, of all places. Coeur d'Alene has an ordinance requiring clergy of any sort to perform gay marriages. The owners of a wedding chapel (clergy!?!?) have been fined, for refusal to perform such. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a test case out of Alabama. Our statutes list who may perform marriages, not who must. Some judges of probate (Mobile) have declined to perform any marriages at all. This obviously raises the same issue. As I said, the supreme court may choose to solve this in advance, with a 1st Amendment protection built-in, if SS marriage is upheld. JMHO, but Kennedy's questioning didn't look good for SSM. OTOH, Roberts' questions showed some surprising twists. As I think I've said above, some place, at this point, I wouldn't be totally surprised by a decision favoring SSM, but with Roberts writing a separate, concurring opinion, based narrowly on sexual discrimination, rather than a broad constitutional right. Going to be interesting...
I think we had a thread about that Idaho case a while back.


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