The Obama economy vs. The Reagan Economy

selmaborntidefan

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My favorite comment about Reagan's success was by Jules Witcover in his history of the Democratic Party called 'Party of the People.' I'm paraphrasing but he basically said this: "Democrats found out that what Reagan said and what Reagan did were often too different things but getting people to care was another matter altogether."

What I've learned about American politics from watching since Carter's time is this: doubt always favors the incumbent unless it is overcome and merely getting folks to despise the guy in office will not really help you all that much. I saw this with Reagan, Clinton, Bush, and now Obama (thus, the party doesn't matter).

Democrats really truly thought that the voting public would despise Reagan to the point they did, and this was absurd given that Reagan was an actor who knew how to play the "wrongly wounded pol." Not as much with Reagan as with Bush 43. They REALLY and TRULY thought they could get the country to hate Bush as badly as they did, they'd just carry over the nasty aftertaste of the 2000 Election and then win. It's a good thing for them Bush was dumb because think how badly things would have been if he'd been smart.

But the GOP was no better. Heck, I'll admit I thought Clinton was a goner in 1995 and so did nearly everyone else. But the American people as a whole were not as hung up on hating Clinton as Newt, Bob Barr, Tom DeLay, and the others (Richard Armey warned Newt that the GOP was going to get creamed in the shutdown fracas and he was right). Clinton was also the anti-Reagan.....Reagan ALWAYS got more votes on Election Day than he ever polled and Clinton always got less (remember when polls showed him beating Dole by 15 and he won by less than half?).

And then there's Obama, a guy who offered plenty of opportunity for a Republican to win - and yet once again, the American public does not hate Obama as badly as Mitch O'Connell does (name mis-spell intentional, Reagan did it in 1984 and said, "I must have been thinking of the Archbishop").

I was too young for Nixon but the same basic truth applies. Nixon was the most despised pol in America from everything I read and yet......he won twice, the second in a colossal rout, in part because the public didn't hate him as badly as the Democratic Party did. Well, not until the very end anyway.

I've long thought John Kerry's biggest mistake in 2004 was he never campaigned on TV for what he was FOR. He used meaningless slogans "I know a better way" and "I went to Vietnam" blah blah blah but in all seriousness I never saw him spell out one single specific on TV during the campaign (to be fair, I did read his book of proposals and he did make some although most of those were nested in meaningless jargon as well). He spent the entire campaign trying to convince us he was only for the war because Bush "lied" about it and wanted us to accept the idea Bush "made a mistake" but was unwilling to call his own vote one. Kerry never got that the people "out there" didn't despise Bush as much as his party did.

And I watch this over and over. The GOP better not think the public as a whole despising Hillary will be enough to keep her out of DC just as y'all better not be foolish enough to think that just because Rand Paul and Ted Cruz have said some stupid things it will automatically defeat them, either.

And for those thinking we should return to the golden age when people debated civilly I have three words for you: Hamilton and Burr.
 

TideWatcher

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I think you are right Selma; as much as people dislike Hillary she will win if the Repubs make the election about voting against her. Somebody has to make the case of why to vote for him, not against her.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Barack Obama was right (and boy did he catch a ton of flack from his own party for it) back in 2008 when he talked about Reagan being on the right side of having a vision and espousing ideas. I look at the guys who won in my lifetime and to a point they (with one notable exception) laid out something up front. Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Obama. The sole exception was Bush 41, and he didn't have to because the Democrats gave him a pass by nominating a left-wing nut. Even Obama in 2008 campaigned as a "can do" optimist although I personally think what did McCain in mostly was the stock market crash followed by his "fundamentals' remark. It isn't that these guys were beholden to their promises (Clinton, in particular, set records for broken promises before he even took office) but they spelled out some sort of optimistic vision they were "for." Hillary is laying the groundwork for that right now and resentment alone will not win the election for the GOP. Someone needs to spell out a bright future agenda with a smile and tolerant wink. (A lot of folks seem to forget that Reagan was staunchly pro-life but didn't really invest any resources towards making sure abortion was made illegal; he was not seen as a threat to anyone's liberty).
 

BamaFlum

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Barack Obama was right (and boy did he catch a ton of flack from his own party for it) back in 2008 when he talked about Reagan being on the right side of having a vision and espousing ideas. I look at the guys who won in my lifetime and to a point they (with one notable exception) laid out something up front. Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Obama. The sole exception was Bush 41, and he didn't have to because the Democrats gave him a pass by nominating a left-wing nut. Even Obama in 2008 campaigned as a "can do" optimist although I personally think what did McCain in mostly was the stock market crash followed by his "fundamentals' remark. It isn't that these guys were beholden to their promises (Clinton, in particular, set records for broken promises before he even took office) but they spelled out some sort of optimistic vision they were "for." Hillary is laying the groundwork for that right now and resentment alone will not win the election for the GOP. Someone needs to spell out a bright future agenda with a smile and tolerant wink. (A lot of folks seem to forget that Reagan was staunchly pro-life but didn't really invest any resources towards making sure abortion was made illegal; he was not seen as a threat to anyone's liberty).
Very true. The GOP can't run around saying how bad Obama is or how Clinton is horrible. They must present something of a platform (besides bashing the other candidate) or they are toast.


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selmaborntidefan

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Very true. The GOP can't run around saying how bad Obama is or how Clinton is horrible. They must present something of a platform (besides bashing the other candidate) or they are toast.


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You can only make the "other guy" (or girl) an issue if you actually have spelled SOMETHING out. It may be incoherent nonsense but it's sorta like Clinton did in 1995. He was on the ropes, but then he submitted his own balanced budget proposal and engaged the GOP on those issues. Granted - Clinton benefited because his party got so waxed in the mid-terms that they were stuck desperately holding onto him keeping office (all while he was selling them out, ha ha). The bottom line being that he did lay out something. So did Bush in 2000. Bush was a lot like Reagan in the sense that he said the same three things he was "for" over and over and over again and used every question to come back to it. The successful ones (in general) do just that.
 

bamacon

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Just about ALL the candidates for the GOP are running on IDEAS this time. This will not be a DOLE, McCAIN, ROMNEY it's my turn vote against the other candidate because I stand for nothing repeat. This will be the biggest clash of ideological theories since Reagan vs. Carter. It will be big govt. liberalism vs. smaller govt. conservatism. What I like is that all of the candidates that I see as viable can actually articulate what conservatism is. And no, Jeb, is not in that mix because he is not viable and is not a conservative.

That's the other thing, establishment Repubicans vs. conservatives is the first battle and it will be fun to watch. I believe the establishment ruling class in Washington doesn't have a letter by their name. They are the same and the ones who claim GOP leadership are about to find out just how ticked the conservative base is. If they think 2010, and 2014 were big they haven't seen anything yet.
 

cuda.1973

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Wrong, because that means it goes to someone other than the dumbest of the Bush clan, or some other corporatist notzy. Like Krispy Kreme. (Not that he is likely, but more acceptable to the corporatists than the other guys you think have a chance.)

Do you really think Karl Rove is stockpiling money to let someone else win the nomination?
 

cuda.1973

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I remember the $300 (or was it $600) dollar toilet seats.
It was $600, and had nothing to do with Reagan, or any other President. It is endemic to the process of getting a military contract. The paper work requirements are staggering, and the amount of documentation at every step of the manufacturing process, including a lot of petty minutia, is the cause of the prices.

Most engineers working on military projects do absolutely no engineering. Paperwork, testing, and verifying the testing. And documenting all of it.

That stuff costs money, folks.
 

mittman

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It was $600, and had nothing to do with Reagan, or any other President. It is endemic to the process of getting a military contract. The paper work requirements are staggering, and the amount of documentation at every step of the manufacturing process, including a lot of petty minutia, is the cause of the prices.

Most engineers working on military projects do absolutely no engineering. Paperwork, testing, and verifying the testing. And documenting all of it.

That stuff costs money, folks.
That isn't all of it. There is corruption, waste, fraud and abuse in any government procurement process. However, you are right. It is staggering how much goes into proving that a product meets a MIL-SPEC.
 

Bamaro

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That isn't all of it. There is corruption, waste, fraud and abuse in any government procurement process. However, you are right. It is staggering how much goes into proving that a product meets a MIL-SPEC.
Also staggering why such extensive specs are needed for common products.
 

seebell

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I once did a fair amount of painting/remodeling contracts for the government at Redstone Arsenal. Small jobs. Most of the material specs were written by suppliers or manufacturers of the products. Gutters specified thickness etc. Guess what? Only one supplier met those specs. Paint specs written by a guy in B'ham who had started by making paint in his garage. Toilet seats probably the same way. Lot of trouble to provide info on the specs of the products I wanted to use. Widespread cheating. Not by me of course.
 

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