News Article: So ISIS Wants to Find out how we Roll...Attacks Anti-Islam Event in Texas

bamacon

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Read that article after getting home tonight. How this guy can compare drawing a cartoon to some of the things he does - apples to oranges.

And he keeps giving lip service to the 1st Amendment while actively calling for ambiguous but tangible limits on it.

He also seems to believe that character assassination and guilt by association is clearly OK if he is the one delivering. I don't know the principles or even how I feel about them at this point, but I did hear the CNN interview with Gellar and she seemed to differentiate between radicals and the rank and file - a line that others on the show attempted to obscure or distort multiple times.

I am quite certain that Gellar is intentionally being provocative and even offensive. That used to be celebrated when people pushed the envelope of the "acceptable". Now it is frowned upon. Attempts are made to ostracize - even posthumously (Charlie Hebdo).

The whole reason this is an issue to discuss and to push the envelope on is the violence that occurs due to the intolerance of violent radicals. So I see the activities as having a legitimate point to make regarding free speech in our society. The provocation and offensiveness to some - and their reaction to it - is the whole point. And it completely goes over this guy's head.

Or maybe the author is just operating with his own subversive agenda.

ETA: Martin Luther was a heretic to the powerful and often violent (at the time) Catholic church. May have technically been blasphemous (others probably know better than I). He was unnecessarily provocative in nailing his 95 Theses right on the door of the church.

But no matter who was offended or found his speech hateful and misguided, he ushered in a movement that brought about a number of the biggest changes in Western society and government. Changes that lead to the oft misunderstood separation of church and state. Changes that had ripple effects for centuries and that still effect us in everyday life.

So however they were viewed at the time or even today, his work was important. It advanced society. It provoked change. It was better that he spoke his mind and did not hold back on the things he said.

That is the importance of free speech. And why any attempt to restrict the right should be met with stiff and overwhelming opposition, IMHO.
Isn't it funny how all the commentators are saying "we have free speech BUT..."

BS!!! Either we have free speech or we don't. Mrs. Gellar isn't stirring the pot. She's got fatwa after fatwa issued against her all over the place. Also, people like CUDA and the people who own the venue that allowed her to host the event have been ordered killed. That is why these douches attacked. This is just the beginning and the group is just showing the world what this religion is all about. There's a reason the local mosque didn't speak up.


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Bamaro

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Isn't it funny how all the commentators are saying "we have free speech BUT..."

BS!!! Either we have free speech or we don't. Mrs. Gellar isn't stirring the pot. She's got fatwa after fatwa issued against her all over the place. Also, people like CUDA and the people who own the venue that allowed her to host the event have been ordered killed. That is why these douches attacked. This is just the beginning and the group is just showing the world what this religion is all about. There's a reason the local mosque didn't speak up.
Having free speach and stirring the pot are not mutually exclusive.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Gee, I wonder if this can be used to point out how ridiculous it is for two gay people to KNOWINGLY go into a Christian bakery and DEMAND a cake be made for them - when there are plenty of other bakers around - and then sue. I mean, does anyone REALLY want someone who does NOT want to make you some food forced to do it?

That's all part of the whole "let's stir up a ruckus" too. If someone didn't want to bake me a cake regardless of the reason, guess what? I'd turn and leave and go elsewhere. And yeah I'd let whoever know about it. But even if you CAN adopt the "by gawd, we gawna sue you" attitude....should you?


(Story some of you might find interesting. My mother-in-law is a fundamentalist Christian. In 1996, her parents (now deceased) celebrated their 60th wedding anniversary at the church. My MIL was in charge of the food plan. She hired two gay brothers she used to play with as a child to come into the SBC church and cater it and make the cake and serve everything. Why did she hire them? Because they're the best at their job in the county plus she wanted the money to go to someone she had known for years. His being gay had no bearing on it one way or the other. Not only that but I'm sure MOST of the people at the celebration knew those two were gay. Not one word of protest or anything was uttered publicly. And her mother even told those two she was glad they were at the ceremony.

Now keep in mind that all those people hold the view that these two guys are going to Hell. But not a word. They got hired not BECAUSE nor IN SPITE of their orientation (or whatever the word is now) - they got hired because she liked them (loves them even to this day) and knew they'd do a good job. From the professional standpoint she didn't care what they did in their personal lives.

And a lot of that is a two-way street).

Back to your regular thread. I've always found that sweet though.
 

jthomas666

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Gee, I wonder if this can be used to point out how ridiculous it is for two gay people to KNOWINGLY go into a Christian bakery and DEMAND a cake be made for them - when there are plenty of other bakers around - and then sue. I mean, does anyone REALLY want someone who does NOT want to make you some food forced to do it?

That's all part of the whole "let's stir up a ruckus" too. If someone didn't want to bake me a cake regardless of the reason, guess what? I'd turn and leave and go elsewhere. And yeah I'd let whoever know about it. But even if you CAN adopt the "by gawd, we gawna sue you" attitude....should you?
The phrase you're looking for is "test case".
 

bamacon

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Gee, I wonder if this can be used to point out how ridiculous it is for two gay people to KNOWINGLY go into a Christian bakery and DEMAND a cake be made for them - when there are plenty of other bakers around - and then sue. I mean, does anyone REALLY want someone who does NOT want to make you some food forced to do it?

That's all part of the whole "let's stir up a ruckus" too. If someone didn't want to bake me a cake regardless of the reason, guess what? I'd turn and leave and go elsewhere. And yeah I'd let whoever know about it. But even if you CAN adopt the "by gawd, we gawna sue you" attitude....should you?


(Story some of you might find interesting. My mother-in-law is a fundamentalist Christian. In 1996, her parents (now deceased) celebrated their 60th wedding anniversary at the church. My MIL was in charge of the food plan. She hired two gay brothers she used to play with as a child to come into the SBC church and cater it and make the cake and serve everything. Why did she hire them? Because they're the best at their job in the county plus she wanted the money to go to someone she had known for years. His being gay had no bearing on it one way or the other. Not only that but I'm sure MOST of the people at the celebration knew those two were gay. Not one word of protest or anything was uttered publicly. And her mother even told those two she was glad they were at the ceremony.

Now keep in mind that all those people hold the view that these two guys are going to Hell. But not a word. They got hired not BECAUSE nor IN SPITE of their orientation (or whatever the word is now) - they got hired because she liked them (loves them even to this day) and knew they'd do a good job. From the professional standpoint she didn't care what they did in their personal lives.

And a lot of that is a two-way street).

Back to your regular thread. I've always found that sweet though.
Great point Selma.

BLUE FONT

Maybe the bakers should start decapitating gay people who ask them. Then people might respect their religious convictions.

BLUE FONT


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chanson78

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From CNN Article said:
There are other American values, too, which deserve mentioning: Exercising your freedoms with responsibility. Yes, we have the right to say things, even offensive things. But should we? Should we act with no consideration of the consequences? Should Geller have hosted an event she knew would draw a violent reaction? Should she put up advertisements in New York with the beneath-contempt claim that killing Jews is obligatory for Muslims?
This to me is the more salient point. Most likely everyone is familiar with the free-speech test regarding shouting "FIRE!" in a movie theater. People like the author seem to think that it is analogous with anti islam events. If you shout fire in a movie theater, there is a high probability someone is going to get hurt. The author is all but admitting that if you hold an anti-islam event (severity of anti-islamic rhetoric was never quantified), there is a high probability someone is going to get hurt. So since it is a possibility that there will be injury, you should exhibit restraint. Is this really a good comparison to draw? Granted I know that he never mentions the fire example, yet he is expecting people to exhibit restraint because of the deeply held religious beliefs of a subset of people in a fairly large religion.

This is a dangerous precedent, and has become more and more prevalent. My main issue is that this expectation of restraint is not extended universally to other sincerely held beliefs in our society. Some on the board have already mentioned westboro, flag burners and other examples. If I were these groups, I would look to this and realize that the only way to gain legitimacy is to become radical and start becoming enough of a threat so that I can drown out the dissent through the expectation of self-censorship.

The whole sincerely held belief basis for which people can rely upon to be pretty horrible human beings is one of the most dangerous things that our courts have allowed to stand in quite some time. There is no barrier to entry nor is there any true means of measurement for such a belief. It is a way to introduce bias and excuses for one's actions into a court of law through a means that cannot be challenged or verified, except through their own actions. The ramifications are now spilling out into our cultural norms as a result.

I don't understand why islam is getting a pass on the whole "don't kill people, no matter what the other guy did to offend you" rule and its now on nutjobs like Geller to moderate their actions and speech. If I were a muslim I would be fairly upset that some guy has just branded his own religion the one who's adherents have poor impulse control. Granted the magic sky monster of that religion just happens to pretty explicitly lay out in his instruction manual, that what these guys did was exactly what was required of them to gain access to heaven.

EDIT: Note when I stated the rule about "don't kill people, no matter what the other guy did" I was actually meaning "don't kill people, no matter what the other guy did to offend you." Obviously these guys are exceptional proof that there are actions you can take, namely immediate threat to harm others, that will get you shot and justifiably so. I am going to modify the original statement so that it reads clearer but for those who are responding or whatever, I don't want that to be a sticking point in the argument.

Having free speach and stirring the pot are not mutually exclusive.
I think you are completely wrong. Free speech has always been about allowing people to stir the pot, more often to turn it over and completely shake up whatever used to be in said pot.

Take this scenario.

Guy gets on TV and says "Christianity is ridiculous, here is a picture of jesus." He then goes on the next hour and says "Islam is ridiculous, here is a picture of mohammed." Two words have changed, but the fact that since the believers in the latter are willing to kill over that statement, he should be required to self censor is patently ridiculous. That is the mentioned groups ability to cause people pause through violent actions effectively censoring their ability to express their opinions. As I mentioned above, it sets a dangerous precedent, and only incentivizes groups who are still the target of negative speech to radicalize themselves to get the same pass that the islamic world has apparently carved out in our society.
 
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Bama Reb

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So, according to certain reports, there are now a few hundred ISIS fighters already here in the US getting ready to start killing Americans. To that I have two things to say. First, Thank you very much to all the politicians who refuse to secure our borders. Second, there are only a hundred million or so of us armed Americans telling them ''Bring it on''.
They have any idea of what they're in for. We'll give them a war they'll never forget. :biggrin2:
 

TIDE-HSV

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So, according to certain reports, there are now a few hundred ISIS fighters already here in the US getting ready to start killing Americans. To that I have two things to say. First, Thank you very much to all the politicians who refuse to secure our borders. Second, there are only a hundred million or so of us armed Americans telling them ''Bring it on''.
They have any idea of what they're in for. We'll give them a war they'll never forget. :biggrin2:
First, since we've temporarily lost our "like" button, I'd like to like Chanson's post. These two turkeys in the Garland caper are not going to be kept out by any border security measures, period. One was born in this country, within these borders. The other came into the country, IIRC, at the age of seven. In the future, IMO, all of these types will be native born and border security can't keep them out...
 

bamacon

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The people doing these things are simply trying to expose this Sharia ideology for what it is. It is a violent cancer that is truly threatening the Middle East and now has been so appeased in Western Europe as to be an extremely dangerous situation there. Cartoonists have been assassinated along with television directors. Innocent soldiers, police, and common citizens have been beheaded and still a blind eye is turned, excuses are made, and the victimized are blamed. I'm still sickened by what I see my fellow citizens doing in response to the events popping up here. So many are doing the exact things they did in Western Europe and it frightens me. My hope is that we wake up before something truly nightmarish occurs.


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Bama Reb

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The people doing these things are simply trying to expose this Sharia ideology for what it is. It is a violent cancer that is truly threatening the Middle East and now has been so appeased in Western Europe as to be an extremely dangerous situation there. Cartoonists have been assassinated along with television directors. Innocent soldiers, police, and common citizens have been beheaded and still a blind eye is turned, excuses are made, and the victimized are blamed. I'm still sickened by what I see my fellow citizens doing in response to the events popping up here. So many are doing the exact things they did in Western Europe and it frightens me. My hope is that we wake up before something truly nightmarish occurs.


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Trying or not, they are succeeding. The people who need to wake up are the major media outlets. They have been far too quiet on it for far too long.
 

seebell

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Let's see. Garland, Texas is part of the Dallas Fort Worth MetroPlex. Millions of people. Lots of Mosque. But no local Muslim protested Gellar's cartoon show!
As Bamacon would say the "The 7th Century Goat raping barbarian" shooters came from far away. Love ya Bamacon! :)

Sure. Let's brand an entire religion because of a few nut cases.
 

bamacon

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Let's see. Garland, Texas is part of the Dallas Fort Worth MetroPlex. Millions of people. Lots of Mosque. But no local Muslim protested Gellar's cartoon show!
As Bamacon would say the "The 7th Century Goat raping barbarian" shooters came from far away. Love ya Bamacon! :)

Sure. Let's brand an entire religion because of a few nut cases.
Sure Seebell, we can't point to any other attacks committed by Muslims against civilians whose speech the disagreed with.[emoji85] if this was a one off I would TOTALLY agree with you, but it isn't. This is SOP for this religion as a whole. You also didn't see any of those local mosques protesting these attacks, standing up for American free speech traditions, thanking America for being such a tolerant and welcoming place for their beliefs, and marching for peace and tolerance did you???


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seebell

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Sure Seebell, we can't point to any other attacks committed by Muslims against civilians whose speech the disagreed with.[emoji85] if this was a one off I would TOTALLY agree with you, but it isn't. This is SOP for this religion as a whole. You also didn't see any of those local mosques protesting these attacks, standing up for American free speech traditions, thanking America for being such a tolerant and welcoming place for their beliefs, and marching for peace and tolerance did you???


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Google this Bamacon. muslims denounce Garland attack.

I'm serious when I say I like the way you phrase things.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Let's see. Garland, Texas is part of the Dallas Fort Worth MetroPlex. Millions of people. Lots of Mosque. But no local Muslim protested Gellar's cartoon show!
As Bamacon would say the "The 7th Century Goat raping barbarian" shooters came from far away. Love ya Bamacon! :)

Sure. Let's brand an entire religion because of a few nut cases.
What's funny is that even Bill Maher and the late Christopher Hitchens - who despise Christianity - would point out which religion is not only more likely but FAR MORE LIKELY to KILL - I repeat, KILL people for it.

And coloring an entire group? You mean like how I watch TV and the suggestion is that every single cop in the USA is a power hungry scumbag, every black person is a thug waiting to riot, refusing to bake a cake for a wedding one views as a holy sacrament is the moral equivalent of killing Matthew Sheppard, and let's not even get started on what people of think lawyers.......

I try to be fair with it but here's the thing: even when there IS an actual denunciation of "terror," it is not screamed nearly as loudly as "oh, they're going to be so mean to us Muslims."

And seebell actually living here - your other point is not so strong. They're so outnumbered here by gun toters that....well you saw what happened and how quick it was. With open carry and the Wild West here, it would be one of the worst places to even try this. And a protest would probably raise the temp with some otherwise peaceful folks.

I won't say every Muslim is violent because that's obviously not true. But when wants to make the equivalent comparison with (for example) historic Catholicism or Salem.......you have to go back HOW MANY centuries to a different time? And it's not like Islam was peaceful even then.

And if the media themselves does not think they're violent, why will they display the cross in urine federally funded art exhibit but NOT display something that might inflame someone else? Why the sensitivity to one religion and not the other? I guess because nobody put fatwas on Salman Rushdie for his views on Jesus, right?


Oh - and a great post (as almost always) by Chanson.
 

NationalTitles18

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SIAP: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/t...-and-radical-islam-is-winning/article/2564186

Alia Salem, executive director of the Dallas and Fort Worth chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, floated restrictions on the First Amendment freedoms, stating, according to the New York Times, that, "The discussion we have to have is: When does free speech become hate speech, and when does hate speech become incitement to violence?"
But as First Amendment scholar Eugene Volokh wrote, "incitement" is defined as trying to persuade people to carry out an attack imminently: "Generally condemning Islam (or condemning capitalism or condemning the police or condemning evangelical Christians), even in harsh terms, doesn't constitute incitement. Even if people think the speaker is trying to foment violence, there's no advocacy of imminent illegal conduct."
 

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