Another Asset Seizure

Tidewater · May 14, 2015

Young black man traveling to California has all of his life savings, $16,000, seized by the DEA.
Traveling on a train with that much cash is not smart, but it is not a crime either. It may warrant the DEA investigating a little further into why this guy is toting so much cash, but seizing it without charge? Is the government trying to precipitate a revolution? How about just apply some common sense and return the poor guy his cash?

Albuquerque DEA Agent said:
We don't have to prove that the person is guilty. It's that the money is presumed to be guilty.

How about we put the money on trial? Will the state appoint a lawyer to defend the money? Who are the "peers" of a pile of money that can serve on a jury? What kind of prison do we put the money in if it is convicted?

92tide · May 14, 2015

just absurd

Bodhisattva · May 14, 2015

No crime or even charges and the feds seize his life savings. If only the Founders had written down somewhere in an official document that unreasonable searches and seizures were not allowed.

Tidewater · May 14, 2015

92tide said:
just absurd

Yeah, the poor guy. Now, someone should have told him that an out of state check might take longer to clear, but it you can deposit and wait. If he was really concerned, then a postal money or or cashiers check would work as well.

Still, unless the DEA has some other evidence that this guy is a drug runner or drug buyer, they need to return this guy's money to him and apologize.

Catfish · May 14, 2015

Tidewater said:
How about we put the money on trial? Will the state appoint a lawyer to defend the money? Who are the "peers" of a pile of money that can serve on a jury? What kind of prison do we put the money in if it is convicted?

I just hope the money exercises its constitutional right and invokes the fifth amendment.

GreatDanish · May 14, 2015

Bodhisattva said:
No crime or even charges and the feds seize his life savings. If only the Founders had written down somewhere in an official document that unreasonable searches and seizures were not allowed.

But, security.

92tide · May 14, 2015

Tidewater said:
Yeah, the poor guy. Now, someone should have told him that an out of state check might take longer to clear, but it you can deposit and wait. If he was really concerned, then a postal money or or cashiers check would work as well.

Still, unless the DEA has some other evidence that this guy is a drug runner or drug buyer, they need to return this guy's money to him and apologize.

unfortunately for him, i'm guessing he never sees a cent of his money again.

Tidewater · May 14, 2015

92tide said:
unfortunately for him, i'm guessing he never sees a cent of his money again.

This is an issue where I believe most of the blame belongs to the Republicans. They tend to be the "law and order" and "get tough on crime" party.
Any law which tolerates this type of law enforcement activity is wrong and needs to be repealed.

Bazza · May 14, 2015

Where did the money come from and how come he was searched in the first place?

Anyone know the details?

Tidewater · May 14, 2015

BamainBoston said:
These asset seizure laws are absurd. Guilty until proven innocent.

I don't write my congressmen too frequently, but this one begged for some citizen input. This is just out of control. If it is pursuant to a Federal statute, the statute needs repealing or serious revision. If it was not done pursuant to a statute, then this behaviour demands a serious congressional rebuke.
This type of oppressive behaviour has got to stop.

Tide1986 · May 14, 2015

I haven't Googled it yet, but has anyone heard of any court cases challenging such seizures?

92tide · May 14, 2015

Tidewater said:
This is an issue where I believe most of the blame belongs to the Republicans. They tend to be the "law and order" and "get tough on crime" party.
Any law which tolerates this type of law enforcement activity is wrong and needs to be repealed.

iirc, this all started up with the war on drugs. war on a substance is about as silly as money committing a crime

Bamaro · May 14, 2015

There's either more to this story or the DEA agents are idiots. Or a little of both.

jthomas666 · May 14, 2015

Tidewater said:
How about we put the money on trial? Will the state appoint a lawyer to defend the money? Who are the "peers" of a pile of money that can serve on a jury? What kind of prison do we put the money in if it is convicted?

If corporations can have constitutional rights, why can't cash have the same rights?

jthomas666 · May 14, 2015

Bamaro said:
There's either more to this story or the DEA agents are idiots. Or a little of both.

Law enforcement has been doing this crap for a while.

NationalTitles18 · May 14, 2015

This really started back in the 80's. Dems and Repubs alike were more than happy to look tough on crime and go after drug kingpins and dealers.

Here's some background of civil asset forfeiture laws.

http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1441&context=faculty_scholarship

The problem comes with how these laws run aground against the due process clauses (plural) in the Constitution. There is no fair way for anyone to prove they didn't get the money or other assets from illegal activity. And the thing is, it could happen to any of us. Doesn't matter if your money is in your hand, the bank, or has changed forms into a car or boat or house.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/due_process

Just one more abuse of power and trampling over our rights by the government. Yet somehow I am supposed to trust the government to make decisions for me and take care of me.

NationalTitles18 · May 14, 2015

http://reason.com/blog/2015/05/14/convenience-store-owner-stands-firm-agai

One convenience store owner prevails, mostly.

bamachile · May 15, 2015

Nixon's War on Drugs was the first step on the asset forfeiture road, but the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984 was the most significant milestone along the pathway. It was somewhat bipartisan and included more than just asset forfeiture, but - although I generally liked RR - I still consider it one of Reagan's largest mistakes.

Some associated reading, if you like:
Asset Forfeiture Program (the official position)
Policing for Profit: The Institution for Justice
Cash Cops: How Civil Forfeiture Enriched U.S. Law Enforcement

I would expect Tidewater to have pertinent historical perspectives at his fingertips.

Tidewater · May 15, 2015

bamachile said:
Nixon's War on Drugs was the first step on the asset forfeiture road, but the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984 was the most significant milestone along the pathway. It was somewhat bipartisan and included more than just asset forfeiture, but - although I generally liked RR - I still consider it one of Reagan's largest mistakes.

Some associated reading, if you like:
Asset Forfeiture Program (the official position)
Policing for Profit: The Institution for Justice
Cash Cops: How Civil Forfeiture Enriched U.S. Law Enforcement

I would expect Tidewater to have pertinent historical perspectives at his fingertips.

I just think that since Nixon's southern strategy, the Republicans have bent over backwards to make themselves into the "law and order" party, including stupid laws like this one.

In Virginia, which is still very strongly Republican outside of the Yankee occupied portions of northern Virginia, the dollar amount that constitutes grand larceny was set at $200 in 1973. It has not been adjusted upwards to account for inflation (of which I believe there has been a bit since 1973). In 1973, $200 was a bit of money. Now, if you are convicted of stealing a cheap bicycle, you're a felon in Virginia. Nobody wants to adjust that dollar amount upward because it would be seen as being "soft on crime."

chanson78 · May 18, 2015

Tide1986 said:
I haven't Googled it yet, but has anyone heard of any court cases challenging such seizures?

On first glance, I would imagine most people who travel with that much cash, likely are carrying all their available savings in such a manner. It doesn't leave much available for lawyer fees to try and get it back. That coupled with the fact that spending 10K in lawyer fees to get 16K back (made up number) probably also makes it difficult to want to even try.

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