Why the last of the JFK files could embarrass the CIA

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,626
39,856
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
Oddly, I believe that taking this same tack (everything's under control, etc.) during the McVeigh trial caused more conspiracy theories than it prevented. There's something about being told, "don't worry and quit looking" that makes people worry more and look harder.
That, and there are just so many anomalies which are so hard to swallow. Oswald moves to the USSR. Leaked records indicate they were suspicious of him. Nevertheless, he's allowed, in a country where almost nobody could own a gun (worse than NYC and Illinois today), he's issued a rifle and a shooting club membership. He marries, and, of all things, she just happens to be the daughter of an NKVD colonel, who would normally never be allowed to leave the country. However, she's granted an exit visa and moves with him. And it goes on and on. Is there any wonder at all that there are conspiracy theories. Had I drawn up a movie screenplay with that many factors, I would be ridiculed for being so obvious with so many clues... ;)
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
That, and there are just so many anomalies which are so hard to swallow. Oswald moves to the USSR. Leaked records indicate they were suspicious of him. Nevertheless, he's allowed, in a country where almost nobody could own a gun (worse than NYC and Illinois today), he's issued a rifle and a shooting club membership. He marries, and, of all things, she just happens to be the daughter of an NKVD colonel, who would normally never be allowed to leave the country. However, she's granted an exit visa and moves with him. And it goes on and on. Is there any wonder at all that there are conspiracy theories. Had I drawn up a movie screenplay with that many factors, I would be ridiculed for being so obvious with so many clues... ;)
No, but you just presented what a RATIONAL person could use to derive the notion of "possible conspiracy." That's one thing. I don't agree with that conclusion but that's at least rational. But by nature your very point here requires Oswald be involved, not the Oliver Stone-Jesse Ventura nonsense. I went to Dealey in 2003 with my Mom, and there was a class of students from SMU there (there's apparently a course in JFK Studies or something there). They interviewed both of us for the class. I said basically what I'm saying here - "I believe the evidence points to Oswald as the lone assassin but that there are enough 'strange variables' involved that a rational person could pursue a conspiracy theory provided he involves Oswald").

All that stuff about Oswald getting into and out of Russia only even applies if Oswald was involved in the killing. It's pointless otherwise. To frame Oswald for it as the Garrison conspiracy suggests requires a bunch of people getting involved - and obviously the more people are involved in it, the less likely it is to succeed (or even if it does succeed - to remain a secret). And then you get into motive - the government killing the President. Well, wouldn't it have been a whole lot easier for the government to have rigged the 1960 election Nixon's way? He only lost by two states and in the popular vote by a little over 100,000 votes. You (generic "you" obviously) telling me these folks needed Oswald but couldn't print up enough phony ballots in a few states to get the "right-winger' (which is an anachronism since Nixon was actually a pragmatic centrist) elected?

But yeah, I can buy some of the WHY regarding the speculation, I just don't think the extant evidence supports it. I have a zinger I've used more than once in theological debates regarding the mythical missing manuscripts of the Bible that would supposedly vindicate the KJV as the best English translation. Every time I run into these "Emmy award winners," they appeal to evidence that not only does not exist - there is no evidence it EVER existed. I usually fire off the line, "So what you're saying is that if evidence that does not exist actually did exist, you would be proven right." That very notion usually speaks for itself.


Let's take an imprecise parallel but it's something everyone knows about: OJ Simpson killing his ex-wife and Ron Goldman. He did it, folks. When I run into his apologists online, they make Flat Earthers seem absolutely rational. I so cornered one idiot that his only comeback was, "Well, you weren't there, you don't KNOW that he did it." I pointed out that by that definition, nobody who was not there could ever know anything about anything - and that if we applied his logic consistently, we could never convict anyone for murder without an eyewitness to the murder. But those folks go on and on about conspiracies and invariably invoke the EDTA defense (which is stupid to do with me since uh I work in the lab DAILY with EDTA tubes). You then find out they know nothing about EDTA at all (it is NOT ONLY in blood tubes, it's in paint, cooking oils.......oh, and should I point out as it was in the blood on the sock it is also found in....yikes! WASH DETERGENT!!!).

My point being - no matter what you point out to the irrational ones, they have a comeback. It never makes any sense - and you wonder how these folks raise kids or deal with life on a daily basis - but they're vociferous in their views.

Rational people can at least connect some dots and speculate an Oswald conspiracy; no rational person - from my POV - can possibly think OJ didn't do it or that Oswald didn't at least pull the trigger.
 

GrayTide

Hall of Fame
Nov 15, 2005
18,832
6,314
187
Greenbow, Alabama
I believe that there are some federal wiretaps in which some mafiosi take credit for it--the theory being that it was in retaliation for the Cuban blockade, which cut the mafia off from some profitable casinos. And it's fairly well documented that at the time, Robert Kennedy thought the mafia was behind it. Jack Ruby supposedly had ties to the mafia as well. The icing on the speculation cake is that the main thing that the Warren Commission was covering up was the degree to which the Kennedys were in bed with the mafia.

Don't know if it's true or not, but I do know that based on everything I've read, Joseph Kennedy Sr. was a piece of filth.
I have read that Joseph Kennedy was a seedy character who made his fortune, shall we say, less than on the up and up. It was also well documented that the Kennedy brothers were going after organized crime with Bobby on point as the Attorney General. Suffice it to say the Kennedys had powerful enemies in spite of their Camelot image and in those days especially the mafia was not someone to mess with even for the POTUS. In the smaller world of the 1960s it would have been easier to coverup any illegal activity at any level.
 

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,482
13,331
287
Hooterville, Vir.
I have read that Joseph Kennedy was a seedy character who made his fortune, shall we say, less than on the up and up. It was also well documented that the Kennedy brothers were going after organized crime with Bobby on point as the Attorney General. Suffice it to say the Kennedys had powerful enemies in spite of their Camelot image and in those days especially the mafia was not someone to mess with even for the POTUS. In the smaller world of the 1960s it would have been easier to coverup any illegal activity at any level.
Which party won Illinois in 1960? What was the largest city in that state? Was the mafia a significant player in politics in that city?
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,626
39,856
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
In reply to Bill's post above, my misgivings have always been about Soviet involvement. The PTB in Moscow absolutely hated JFK and I can't think of a better way to orchestrate an assassination with deniability than what went down. Thinking about it, I believe it was Marina's uncle who was with intelligence, but they were very close. In fact, their wedding took place at his house. When I add my little bit of "inside knowledge" that it was, as was the accusation at the time, a "rush to judgement" by the Commission. If that be your aim, then the last thing on earth you would want to do would be to indicate that there was a shadowy connection to the USSR, one you couldn't possibly prove. I'm not much of a conspiracist, but there certainly are a lot of implausible coincidences which point back in the direction of the Soviets. Perhaps when the additional docs come out, we'll find that they did thoroughly investigate that angle...
 

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,482
13,331
287
Hooterville, Vir.
I still believe that LHO acted alone.
That said, I bet there were toasts being toasted in certain family businesses in Chicago and also some vodka thrown back in Moscow.


(edit: in fairness, vodka gets thrown back every night in Moscow.)
 

mittman

All-American
Jun 19, 2009
3,942
0
0
Honestly, I just want to know about the Babushka Lady.
Yup, that was kind of weird.

I'm with Selma and HSV. If there is a conspiracy it has to involve Oswald. I doubt even those, but there is some plausibility. I can see there being some promise of heroic return. If done right there would be no way to prove the connection even if Oswald said they put him up to it.
 

TrampLineman

Hall of Fame
Jul 21, 2010
7,287
6
57
Alabama
Honestly I'm still one of those that thinks Oswald was hired by Carlos Marcello and whoever else was tied to him in this deal. More than likely Hoffa had a small hand in it and Santo Trafficante had a major hand in it. After all Jack Ruby had mafia ties as well and had to clean up Oswald's mess so he didn't talk as I'm sure they thought he would have died on the site of the assassination.

But I don't pretend to know anything anyone else doesn't. I just think Kennedy became on the hit list once they illegally deported him to Guatamala (sp?) and he had to trek his way back to New Orleans.
 

TIDE-HSV

Senior Administrator
Staff member
Oct 13, 1999
84,626
39,856
437
Huntsville, AL,USA
I still believe that LHO acted alone.
That said, I bet there were toasts being toasted in certain family businesses in Chicago and also some vodka thrown back in Moscow.


(edit: in fairness, vodka gets thrown back every night in Moscow.)
Had to chuckle. On one of the internet advisors to foreign visitors to the US, this one to Russians, one of their pieces of advice about coming to a picnic in the US was to bring your own flask, because there was never going to be enough around to drink...
 

Latest threads

TideFans.shop - NEW Stuff!

TideFans.shop - Get YOUR Bama Gear HERE!”></a>
<br />

<!--/ END TideFans.shop & item link \-->
<p style= Purchases made through our TideFans.shop and Amazon.com links may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.