The Duggar story

bamabelle1991 · May 29, 2015

RollTide1017 said:
I'm not disagreeing with the other points you make but what does this have to do with the Duggar son's case, unless you are saying that Daddy Duggar new this trooper was a pedophile and still talked to him? IMO, these are 2 different cases and one has no effect on the other. You are pulling the old revisionist history trick that the media does all the time just to create controversy (something I hate about the media). I'm sure if daddy Duggar could have seen into the future at the time, knowing what this trooper would turn out to be, he would have never gone to him.

I think it is just ironic that he has a family friend who is a pedophile. That's all.

bamabelle1991 · May 29, 2015

Catfish said:
The Duggars home-schooled their kids under a program run by the "Advanced Training Institute" that is part of the "Institute in Basic Life Principles". The guy who founded and ran those two institutions, a minister named Bill Gothard, was relieved of his duties in 2014 over allegations of harassment from 34 women and molestation from 4 women who were employees. I don't know how their "home church" works, but maybe it was under the auspices of one of these two institutes. And, maybe the counselling the family got came from these people, as well.

Yes. This is exactly what their home church operates under. Seriously, GOOGLE Quiverfull and/or the ATI and read about what they teach their children. It is really scary.

And, sorry for the multiple posts. Just answering as I see them.

bamabelle1991 · May 29, 2015

Catfish said:
I don't think the trooper was who Josh Duggar stayed with. I think Josh was just sent to the trooper for a lecture or to be scared straight. It does seem pretty odd that there are multiple people that the Duggars looked to for help and guidance that appear to have been involved (whether convicted or not) in some sort of sexual crime.

Yes. This. The trooper is NOT the family friend who had the ranch he went to work on. I'm going to go dig up all the articles on my facebook page and post them here.

seebell · May 29, 2015

I like and appreciate your posts and insights bamabelle.

rolltide_21 · May 29, 2015

Catfish said:
The Duggars home-schooled their kids under a program run by the "Advanced Training Institute" that is part of the "Institute in Basic Life Principles". The guy who founded and ran those two institutions, a minister named Bill Gothard, was relieved of his duties in 2014 over allegations of harassment from 34 women and molestation from 4 women who were employees. I don't know how their "home church" works, but maybe it was under the auspices of one of these two institutes. And, maybe the counselling the family got came from these people, as well.

Looked up this guy and organization. Makes you wonder what influence the procedures of ATI had on the situation. I don't think their "home church" was under its umbrella or authority. I've heard JBD say on the show it follows the traditions and practices of the Southern Baptists, of which the elder Duggar was raised in. Most of my family is SB and I don't see hardly any connection between their beliefs and practices, especially the Quiverfull and ATI materials.

Here's an article written a year ago by a former ATI student and teacher- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/micah-j-murray/growing-up-in-bill-gothar_b_5228166.html

It might shed some light on why they took this course of action with their eldest son. The graphic in the article about handling abuse is disturbing to say the least. It appears to be addressed to young women who are to blame on some level for the sexual abuse. You're right Bill Gothard (never heard of him until today) was a manipulative, nasty person. Brain washed a lot of families.

Again, as someone stated, there might not be any connection at all but I do see some possible dangerous influences in the Duggar's life that could have influenced them to handle the situation so poorly. Especially if they followed the graphic/procedure in the ATI materials.

rolltide_21 · May 29, 2015

bamabelle1991 said:
You can find the ages of the victims in the police reports which have been ALL over the internet. I believe one of the 5 year olds was his sister. Someone provided the link to the police reports above.

I have read about this case on numerous websites and have read numerous articles. I can assure you, I have not made up any of what I posted.

Here is a question for all of you who think this is OK because he was a) a 14 year old curious boy that has b) repented to Jesus--if this had happened to YOUR daughter and the perpetrator was anywhere from 3 to 9 years older than her, would you sweep it under the rug? If your daughter had been a victim of Statutory RAPE/SODOMY meaning there is at least a certain number of years between the ages of the victim and perp and/or the victim, due to age or mental incapacity is UNABLE to give consent, do you sweep this under the rug? If you answer yes, you are a sick human and DHR needs to protect your kids. And, no, I am not sorry for believing this.

This is not a case of 14-15 year old "love birds" having sex. This is WAY different. If your beliefs make it impossible for you to understand this, then I just don't know what to say.

Amen.

CrankyFranky · May 29, 2015

Organized religion in general has become a scam. It's about money and control. Good luck with all that.

bamabelle1991 · May 29, 2015

http://gawker.com/quiverfull-of-......_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow (This one has profanity.)

This is a blog, but has very good information about victims. http://thejoyparadeblog.com/what-does-the-josh-duggar-dialogue-say-to-assault-victims/

http://defamer.gawker.com/the-web-h..._source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Specifically about their homeschool program and its thoughts on sexual assault. http://gawker.com/the-duggar-homesc..._source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Another blog, but worth the read http://www.scarymommy.com/josh-duggar-molestation-twitter-cancel-the-duggars/

Most of these articles I got from the Gawker, just because it is a website I read. Websites, such as CNN, MSNBC, etc. ran similar, if not identical articles.

bamabelle1991 · May 29, 2015

rolltide_21 said:
Looked up this guy and organization. Makes you wonder what influence the procedures of ATI had on the situation. I don't think their "home church" was under its umbrella or authority. I've heard JBD say on the show it follows the traditions and practices of the Southern Baptists, of which the elder Duggar was raised in. Most of my family is SB and I don't see hardly any connection between their beliefs and practices, especially the Quiverfull and ATI materials.

Here's an article written a year ago by a former ATI student and teacher- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/micah-j-murray/growing-up-in-bill-gothar_b_5228166.html

It might shed some light on why they took this course of action with their eldest son. The graphic in the article about handling abuse is disturbing to say the least. It appears to be addressed to young women who are to blame on some level for the sexual abuse. You're right Bill Gothard (never heard of him until today) was a manipulative, nasty person. Brain washed a lot of families.

Again, as someone stated, there might not be any connection at all but I do see some possible dangerous influences in the Duggar's life that could have influenced them to handle the situation so poorly. Especially if they followed the graphic/procedure in the ATI materials.

Yes, that is another article read and it is very scary. Reminds me of Scientology but with Jesus. It's kind of like I always say--ANYTHING to the extreme is dangerous and this Quiverfull/ATI teaching method is as extreme as it comes.

I had some juvenile clients who came from a Quiverfull family and the reason they became my clients is because they all started molesting each other. The family was not quite as large as the Duggars and only two of them were natural born to the parents. The others were family pods that they adopted form several states. I think they had about 15 kids. When they first found out about the incest, the parents took them out to the pond and tried to beat the sin out of them with bamboo rods. They also punished several of the kids with water torture--pushing their heads under water until they almost drowned. Believe it or not, this didn't work so when they caught them acting out again, they loaded them up in the 15 passenger van and took them to the Sheriff's Department and had them all charged with crimes. I was one of 5 attorneys who got appointed to represent the kids. One of my clients was 9 years old. She was charged with sodomy because she and her brothers were touching each other but she had also been raped by an older brother. When we started getting all the family history together, we contacted DHR and these kids were removed from the home. The younger ones who were victims had the charges dropped or reduced so they could plea without being labeled as sex offenders. The older boys, oldest was probably 14-15 at the time, were all adjudicated delinquent and has to serve the mandatory juvenile sex offender program through Mt. Meigs in Alabama. The parents refused to parent these kids and abandoned all of them. They were all in DHR's custody for probably 3 years before this family (who happened to be Air Force, which is irrelevant but...)moved to Washington State. After the 3 years in foster care, several of the younger children decided they wanted to move to Washington with their parents and the parents agreed to take them back. Granted, before all of this happened, they were receiving thousands of dollars in subsidy money from several different states--the states where the kids came from. One State, I think it was Texas, paid this family around $4000 a month in an adoption subsidy. They made a really good living off of adopting kids and treating them like crap. I have no idea what happened to these kids after they moved to Washington. The ones who didn't go were adopted by their foster parents and are doing very well.

I think one of the reasons why this Duggar situation gets me so aggrevated is because I lived through this horror with my clients. You have NO idea how hard it is to convince a child that what was happening to them was NOT normal behavior. It makes me so sad to think about it.

Jon · May 29, 2015

bamabelle1991 said:
Yes. This is exactly what their home church operates under. Seriously, GOOGLE Quiverfull and/or the ATI and read about what they teach their children. It is really scary.

And, sorry for the multiple posts. Just answering as I see them.

they use that disgusting book from the Pearls, To Train Up a Child. My wife and her buddies actively search out used copies at used book stores, flea markets and thrift stores just to throw them in the garbage to get a few copies out of circulation

They also teach that women have no value outside of reproduction and to be silent faithful vessels for their man's seed. It's really not all that surprising that josh thought he could do whatever he wanted to his sisters and other girls. They are valueless temptresses, I'm sure on many levels the Duggars assumed the girls are at fault anyway

eww these people disgust me

Jon · May 29, 2015

bamabelle1991 said:
Yes, that is another article read and it is very scary. Reminds me of Scientology but with Jesus. It's kind of like I always say--ANYTHING to the extreme is dangerous and this Quiverfull/ATI teaching method is as extreme as it comes.

I had some juvenile clients who came from a Quiverfull family and the reason they became my clients is because they all started molesting each other. The family was not quite as large as the Duggars and only two of them were natural born to the parents. The others were family pods that they adopted form several states. I think they had about 15 kids. When they first found out about the incest, the parents took them out to the pond and tried to beat the sin out of them with bamboo rods. They also punished several of the kids with water torture--pushing their heads under water until they almost drowned. Believe it or not, this didn't work so when they caught them acting out again, they loaded them up in the 15 passenger van and took them to the Sheriff's Department and had them all charged with crimes. I was one of 5 attorneys who got appointed to represent the kids. One of my clients was 9 years old. She was charged with sodomy because she and her brothers were touching each other but she had also been raped by an older brother. When we started getting all the family history together, we contacted DHR and these kids were removed from the home. The younger ones who were victims had the charges dropped or reduced so they could plea without being labeled as sex offenders. The older boys, oldest was probably 14-15 at the time, were all adjudicated delinquent and has to serve the mandatory juvenile sex offender program through Mt. Meigs in Alabama. The parents refused to parent these kids and abandoned all of them. They were all in DHR's custody for probably 3 years before this family (who happened to be Air Force, which is irrelevant but...)moved to Washington State. After the 3 years in foster care, several of the younger children decided they wanted to move to Washington with their parents and the parents agreed to take them back. Granted, before all of this happened, they were receiving thousands of dollars in subsidy money from several different states--the states where the kids came from. One State, I think it was Texas, paid this family around $4000 a month in an adoption subsidy. They made a really good living off of adopting kids and treating them like crap. I have no idea what happened to these kids after they moved to Washington. The ones who didn't go were adopted by their foster parents and are doing very well.

I think one of the reasons why this Duggar situation gets me so aggrevated is because I lived through this horror with my clients. You have NO idea how hard it is to convince a child that what was happening to them was NOT normal behavior. It makes me so sad to think about it.

I don't know how you do what you do, but thanks for doing it. These kids need a voice

crimsonaudio · May 29, 2015

Jon said:
I don't know how you do what you do, but thanks for doing it. These kids need a voice

Amen.

rolltide_21 · May 29, 2015

bamabelle1991 said:
Yes, that is another article read and it is very scary. Reminds me of Scientology but with Jesus. It's kind of like I always say--ANYTHING to the extreme is dangerous and this Quiverfull/ATI teaching method is as extreme as it comes.

I had some juvenile clients who came from a Quiverfull family and the reason they became my clients is because they all started molesting each other. The family was not quite as large as the Duggars and only two of them were natural born to the parents. The others were family pods that they adopted form several states. I think they had about 15 kids. When they first found out about the incest, the parents took them out to the pond and tried to beat the sin out of them with bamboo rods. They also punished several of the kids with water torture--pushing their heads under water until they almost drowned. Believe it or not, this didn't work so when they caught them acting out again, they loaded them up in the 15 passenger van and took them to the Sheriff's Department and had them all charged with crimes. I was one of 5 attorneys who got appointed to represent the kids. One of my clients was 9 years old. She was charged with sodomy because she and her brothers were touching each other but she had also been raped by an older brother. When we started getting all the family history together, we contacted DHR and these kids were removed from the home. The younger ones who were victims had the charges dropped or reduced so they could plea without being labeled as sex offenders. The older boys, oldest was probably 14-15 at the time, were all adjudicated delinquent and has to serve the mandatory juvenile sex offender program through Mt. Meigs in Alabama. The parents refused to parent these kids and abandoned all of them. They were all in DHR's custody for probably 3 years before this family (who happened to be Air Force, which is irrelevant but...)moved to Washington State. After the 3 years in foster care, several of the younger children decided they wanted to move to Washington with their parents and the parents agreed to take them back. Granted, before all of this happened, they were receiving thousands of dollars in subsidy money from several different states--the states where the kids came from. One State, I think it was Texas, paid this family around $4000 a month in an adoption subsidy. They made a really good living off of adopting kids and treating them like crap. I have no idea what happened to these kids after they moved to Washington. The ones who didn't go were adopted by their foster parents and are doing very well.

I think one of the reasons why this Duggar situation gets me so aggrevated is because I lived through this horror with my clients. You have NO idea how hard it is to convince a child that what was happening to them was NOT normal behavior. It makes me so sad to think about it.

Very sad story and there are hundreds, sadly, still enslaved with this teaching. This couple deserves to be in jail for fraud among the many other things. $4k per month? They knew exactly what they were doing.

There is good faith-based homeschooling material availble. The Bible college where I serve as adjunct instructor has a great curriculum/group. It's garbage like this that gives the other good homechool materials a bad name. A lot of my minister friends homeschool. We looked into it but it is not for us. After looking over homeschool curriculums, none were like this organization's garbage. Anyone with any critical thinking skills, assuming it's developed, can see through it. But as you stated the brainwashing begins at birth. It's hard to break this connection and abusive lifestyle.

Jon · May 29, 2015

BamainBoston said:
Sounds like Islam.

many fundies of all sects seem the same to me. Muslims, Christians, Mormons, it doesn't matter it's all the same to me

Tidewater · May 29, 2015

Jon said:
they use that disgusting book from the Pearls, To Train Up a Child. My wife and her buddies actively search out used copies at used book stores, flea markets and thrift stores just to throw them in the garbage to get a few copies out of circulation

I knew a professor at Alabama who used to buy Foreigner albums just so he could break them.

CrimsonNagus · May 29, 2015

bamabelle1991 said:
Yes, that is another article read and it is very scary. Reminds me of Scientology but with Jesus.

I just got done reading that article and was about to post the same thing, I had visions of that recent Scientology documentary from HBO (Going Clear) dancing through my head while reading the article. Maybe not quite to some of the extremes of Scientology but, very similar mind/thought controlling practices.

I've never been a big Duggar family fan, I've always seen them as a family using there kids, through TV, to make money (as long as they kept having kids, the show would go on, and the paycheck). I feel the same way about most family stalking reality TV shows like, "Jon and Kate plus 8" and "Little People, Big World". Those 2 shows basically tore those families apart both ending in divorce, all for fortune and glory.

Tide1986 · May 29, 2015

bamabelle1991 said:
You can find the ages of the victims in the police reports which have been ALL over the internet. I believe one of the 5 year olds was his sister. Someone provided the link to the police reports above.

I have read about this case on numerous websites and have read numerous articles. I can assure you, I have not made up any of what I posted.

Here is a question for all of you who think this is OK because he was a) a 14 year old curious boy that has b) repented to Jesus--if this had happened to YOUR daughter and the perpetrator was anywhere from 3 to 9 years older than her, would you sweep it under the rug? If your daughter had been a victim of Statutory RAPE/SODOMY meaning there is at least a certain number of years between the ages of the victim and perp and/or the victim, due to age or mental incapacity is UNABLE to give consent, do you sweep this under the rug? If you answer yes, you are a sick human and DHR needs to protect your kids. And, no, I am not sorry for believing this.

This is not a case of 14-15 year old "love birds" having sex. This is WAY different. If your beliefs make it impossible for you to understand this, then I just don't know what to say.

Regardless of what I believe about this matter, you are letting your emotions get the best of you. Regarding the matter itself, attempting to address a child's behavior/actions is not "sweeping this under the rug". Use of that phrase is a bit hyperbolic in my opinion.

mittman · May 29, 2015

Jon said:
I don't know how you do what you do, but thanks for doing it. These kids need a voice

Add my thanks too.

I have some personal experience dealing with this myself. We had some foster children who had to deal with a similar family dynamic come into our home.

This statement particularly rings true:

"You have NO idea how hard it is to convince a child that what was happening to them was NOT normal behavior."

It is amazing what some people will consider normal if that is all they have known.

Tide1986 said:
Regardless of what I believe about this matter, you are letting your emotions get the best of you. Regarding the matter itself, attempting to address a child's behavior/actions is not "sweeping this under the rug". Use of that phrase is a bit hyperbolic in my opinion.

I can see something considering a statement hyperbole if one has not dealt with the repercussions. Sure personal experience may taint objectiveness, and cause emotional responses, but it also gives an informed perspective. In this case I think the latter applies.

Tide1986 · May 29, 2015

mittman said:
Add my thanks too.

I have some personal experience dealing with this myself. We had some foster children who had to deal with a similar family dynamic come into our home.

This statement particularly rings true:

"You have NO idea how hard it is to convince a child that what was happening to them was NOT normal behavior."

It is amazing what some people will consider normal if that is all they have known.

I can see something considering a statement hyperbole if one has not dealt with the repercussions. Sure personal experience may taint objectiveness, and cause emotional responses, but it also gives an informed perspective. In this case I think the latter applies.

I am generally turned off by emotional pleas -- they make me very suspicious of one's assertions.

mittman · May 29, 2015

Tidewater said:
I knew a professor at Alabama who used to buy Foreigner albums just so he could break them.

LOL, I hope he didn't teach economics. He is just increasing demand

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