Why our country is screwed - Disney imports Indians to replace US workers

lazlohollyfeld

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In your world, Google, PayPal and literally dozens of massive American companies in the tech sector would be foreign companies. Elon Musk had done nothing prior to paypal, same for Sergei Brin at Google, what if they didn't meet "your satisfaction" to be one of the 6? I'm guessing that two college kids with funny names wouldn't have met your criteria.
Huh?

Sergei Brin came to this country as a child, not a college student. His father is a Professor of Mathematics at the University of Maryland and his mother is a research scientist at NASA, so yes, they likely make this a better country for having admitted them. Not to mention the fact that you are completely leaving out Larry Page's contributions to founding Google.

And Elon Musk had founded, grown, and sold a company (Zip2) to Compaq for $300 million before he founded X.Com, which eventually merged with Confinity. Confinity's founders had developed and released PayPal in 1999, Musk acquired it through the merger 2000.
 

Tidewater

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In your world, Google, PayPal and literally dozens of massive American companies in the tech sector would be foreign companies. Elon Musk had done nothing prior to paypal, same for Sergei Brin at Google, what if they didn't meet "your satisfaction" to be one of the 6? I'm guessing that two college kids with funny names wouldn't have met your criteria.

oh, and we'd be paying $50 a crab claw and whole industries would be destroyed in this country. Look at the pineapple industry in Hawaii. I'll give you a hint, there really isn't one anymore. They are extremely labor intensive so producers in the Philippines, Costa Rica and other areas where able to undercut Dole by using their local third world labor versus Americans in Hawaii. Dole had a few choices, move to these countries themselves (what they did) Bring in H2B's or something like it (not reasonable in Hawaii), Try to market their Pineapple as better at 3-4x the cost or just get run out of business. Your ideas would do the same to many of the labor intensive farms in this country. Now you can "fix" that with massive tarrifs on imports to try and make your uber expensive local crops competitive but that starts a huge chain reaction that I don't want to delve much farther into.
I get all that. "Funny names" have nothing to do with it, although that is nice code speech for calling me a racist without using the word. Well done.
I just think there is something valuable about the United States, and it is being destroyed, not intentionally, but destroyed nevertheless. When it's gone and San Francisco and New York work like Tegucigalpa and think like Karachi, it will be missed. At least I will miss it.
And, from the perspective of the net "donor" countries, the removal of those members of society possessed of an above-average of initiative and/or intelligence via migration to the US & Europe is screwing those societies. If the Robert Fultons, the Thomas Edisons, the George Washington Carvers had been scooped out and moved to Australia, the development of the United States might have been stunted forever. We could be an endless series of subsistence farmers, still eking out at living from the soil. Encouraging the departure of the initiative- and talent-laden from African and Latin American countries promises to do the same for them.
America (and Europe, where I am as I type) can accept a certain number of immigrants and remain America and Europe. At a certain rate of immigration, they adopt the culture of the host country, and maybe even add a little of their own to the host culture.
Accept too many too fast and the immigrants do not adopt and assimilate. They remain apart, deracinated and alienated, as the French and Belgians discovered to their chagrin last winter. We can have both immigration and keep the United States, but only if we avoid accepting so many immigrants that we crush the American culture under their weight. I’d rather err on the side of too few than too many. Right now we are not effectively controlling immigration at all (except via having a crap economy). That bodes ill for the future.
 
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Jon

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Huh?

Sergei Brin came to this country as a child, not a college student. His father is a Professor of Mathematics at the University of Maryland and his mother is a research scientist at NASA, so yes, they likely make this a better country for having admitted them. Not to mention the fact that you are completely leaving out Larry Page's contributions to founding Google.

And Elon Musk had founded, grown, and sold a company (Zip2) to Compaq for $300 million before he founded X.Com, which eventually merged with Confinity. Confinity's founders had developed and released PayPal in 1999, Musk acquired it through the merger 2000.
so disregard my two examples of people I thought were immigrants and find two others from the thousands that come here and build businesses that employ Americans.
 

Tidewater

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Huh?

Sergei Brin came to this country as a child, not a college student. His father is a Professor of Mathematics at the University of Maryland and his mother is a research scientist at NASA, so yes, they likely make this a better country for having admitted them. Not to mention the fact that you are completely leaving out Larry Page's contributions to founding Google.

And Elon Musk had founded, grown, and sold a company (Zip2) to Compaq for $300 million before he founded X.Com, which eventually merged with Confinity. Confinity's founders had developed and released PayPal in 1999, Musk acquired it through the merger 2000.
Bluto said:
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Forget it. He's on a roll.
 

Jon

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Forget it. He's on a roll.
let's just ignore the substance and focus on the mistake

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...aa424c-ea41-11e2-a301-ea5a8116d211_story.html

In total, more than 40 percent of the Fortune 500 firms were started by immigrants or children of immigrants, including seven of the 10 most valuable brands in the world, according to a study by The Partnership for a New American Economy, a coalition of governors and business leaders led by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

More recently, a study commissioned by the National Venture Capital Association showed foreign-born entrepreneurs are now responsible for even more initial public offerings and economic growth than they were before the recession.
 

Jon

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I get all that. "Funny names" have nothing to do with it, although that is nice code speech for calling me a racist without using the word. Well done.
I just think there is something valuable about the United States, and it is being destroyed, not intentionally, but destroyed nevertheless. When it's gone and San Francisco and New York work like Tegucigalpa and think like Karachi, it will be missed. At least I will miss it.
And, from the perspective of the net "donor" countries, the removal of those members of society possessed of an above-average of initiative and/or intelligence via migration to the US & Europe is screwing those societies. If the Robert Fultons, the Thomas Edisons, the George Washington Carvers had been scooped out and moved to Australia, the development of the United States might have been stunted forever. We could be an endless series of subsistence farmers, still eking out at living from the soil. Encouraging the departure of the initiative- and talent-laden from African and Latin American countries promises to do the same for them.
America (and Europe, where I am as I type) can accept a certain number of immigrants and remain America and Europe. At a certain rate of immigration, they adopt the culture of the host country, and maybe even add a little of their own to the host culture.
Accept too many too fast and the immigrants do not adopt and assimilate. They remain apart, deracinated and alienated, as the French and Belgians discovered to their chagrin last winter. We can have both immigration and keep the United States, but only if we avoid accepting so many immigrants that we crush the American culture under their weight. I’d rather err on the side of too few than too many. Right now we are not effectively controlling immigration at all (except via having a crap economy). That bodes ill for the future.
First, apologies, I missed this post and didnt see it till now

second I honestly don't know where you are going here. In your 2nd paragraph are you saying that it is wrong for us and the EU to accept these people? You want the next immigrant with a great idea at Stanford to go back home and develop a multi-billion dollar tech firm or stay in the US? I know what I'd rather have

and on your 3rd paragraph, what a load. Same things were said about my Italian grandparents who lived in little italy's and would never assimilate, know what happened? Their kids are as American as you and me. Same thing happens all the time. Working in tech I work with hundreds of first and 2nd generation immigrants, the first gen laments their kids being "too American" By Gen 3 they are no different from any other American except for maybe their skin color

oh and on paragraph one I was insinuating you were a Xenophobe, not a racist
 
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Tidewater

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I got that, but that does not explain why we need 385,000 illiterate or quasi literate agricultural workers and landscapers from Mexico, and central America each year. How many Fortune 500 companies were founded by or led by the lower end (i.e. those illegals who come in looking for agricultural or landscaping type of employment)?
I'd bet that a large number of those immigrant (or 2nd generation, children of immigrants) was from India or east Asia.
 

mittman

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Jun 19, 2009
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IMO. What is happening is some pendulums swinging way too far.

Do we need to protect our economy and business structure? Sure, but only when the are being unfairly attacked. Far too often we protect something that either does not need to be protected, or probably needs to fail in the first place.

Do we need foreign workers to do jobs that Americans will not do? Sure, in large part because we will not let the ones that will not do the job suffer the consequences of not taking that job.

TW nailed it again on the cultural immigration. Sure some 2nd and 3rd generations do assimilate, but there are also communities that have grown so large, and are continuing to grow that will take a lot more than a couple of generations.

What is wrong with $50 crab legs if that is what the market lands on? Sometimes prices need to inflate and wages need to adjust themselves.
 

Jon

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I got that, but that does not explain why we need 385,000 illiterate or quasi literate agricultural workers and landscapers from Mexico, and central America each year. How many Fortune 500 companies were founded by or led by the lower end (i.e. those illegals who come in looking for agricultural or landscaping type of employment)?
I'd bet that a large number of those immigrant (or 2nd generation, children of immigrants) was from India or east Asia.
now you sound like a racist, if I get some time I'll google around for business started by 2nd gen Mexicans. I can think of a few large chains of Mexican restaurants in Atlanta that I am sure were that employ hundreds

we need those 385K because we simply do. I'm not ready to pay $25 for a single cabbage, are you? I have family in the cabbage farming business. They don't harvest often but when they are ready to harvest the South Americans show up. A few years back due to new pressures on immigrants the usuals avoided their area for the harvest and the farmers ended up with cabbages rotting in the fields because the local unemployed people wouldn't touch the work as it was far less than what they "earned" on welfare. You want our farmers to have to pay minimum wage, plus benefits, plus workers comp, plus plus plus to be half as productive as a small subset of those 385K workers? Be ready for everything you buy at the grocery store to skyrocket in price or for American farmers to simply go out of business trying to compete with products grown in the third world.
 
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Tidewater

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now you sound like a racist, if I get some time I'll google around for business started by 2nd gen Mexicans. I can think of a few large chains of Mexican restaurants in Atlanta that I am sure were that employ hundreds
I'm not a racist, I can be accused of being a culturalist. Not all cultures (or subsets of cultures) are equal in my view. If I said it was in the genes of Chinese or Indian people, that would be racist. I just believe it is the culture.
What do you suppose would turn up if we examined the statistics comparing the educational and entrepreneurial achievements of Chinese immigrants to Mexican immigrants?
we need those 385K because we simply do. I'm not ready to pay $25 for a single cabbage, are you? I have family in the cabbage farming business. They don't harvest often but when they are ready to harvest the South Americans show up. A few years back due to new pressures on immigrants the usuals avoided their area for the harvest and the farmers ended up with cabbages rotting in the fields because the local unemployed people wouldn't touch the work as it was far less than what they "earned" on welfare. You want our farmers to have to pay minimum wage, plus benefits, plus workers comp, plus plus plus to be half as productive as a small subset of those 385K workers? Be ready for everything you buy at the grocery store to skyrocket in price or for American farmers to simply go out of business trying to compete with products grown in the third world.
I got that. That is as much an indictment of the social safety net being too high than of the legal immigration system.
What concerns me is illegal immigration in numbers (and qualities) that we don't know because we don't control. I have no problem with legal immigration (although I believe the quotas should be set much lower, and should be based on the benefit the immigrant brings to the US). I have a serious problem with uncontrolled illegal immigration.
 

crimson fan man

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Hence my post earlier in the thread about starvation -- an empty stomach can be a strong motivator to do work that one might otherwise think is too lowly.
I remember talking to a guy that was from Taiwan in the early eighties and this post made me remember that conversation. He mention that people in America work to have the finer things like nice homes,cars, and all the toys while they work daily to make sure they have food to eat.
 

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