Here we go again: Expansion carousel

81usaf92

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There is simply no reason for the SEC to expand without North Carolina or at least NC State with a Virginia school. It makes no sense to add a Virginia school without one from North Carolina. The league is in great shape as it is but change may happen.
What does UNC have to offer that Duke doesnt? The both are highly prestigous basketball universities in the state of north carolina. Neither has a great secondary sport, but Kentucky and Vandy fits that label as well. Virgina vs Virgina Tech I can see the angle to take Virgina over Tech more because UVA is more rounded sportswise than tech, but Duke vs UNC you really couldnt go wrong either way unless you factor the scandel at UNC into it.
 

Crimson1967

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I think UNC offers a lot more than Duke. They are a public state university, so that gives them a larger fan and alumni base right there. While their football has never been great, they are historically better than Duke. Also, will Duke manage to keep it going when Coach K hangs it up?

There is the issue of ACC schools and their grants of rights (or whatever it was called) that keeps them stuck in the ACC for quite a number of years.

If we could take UNC and Virginia it would solve the issue of Missouri as they could move to the West Division.

That being said, I'm fine staying at 14.
 

CullmanTide

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I think UNC offers a lot more than Duke. They are a public state university, so that gives them a larger fan and alumni base right there. While their football has never been great, they are historically better than Duke. Also, will Duke manage to keep it going when Coach K hangs it up?

There is the issue of ACC schools and their grants of rights (or whatever it was called) that keeps them stuck in the ACC for quite a number of years.

If we could take UNC and Virginia it would solve the issue of Missouri as they could move to the West Division.

That being said, I'm fine staying at 14.
North Carolina has twice the enrollment of Duke. Duke does have a larger endowment going for it.
 

KrAzY3

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What does UNC have to offer that Duke doesnt? The both are highly prestigous basketball universities in the state of north carolina.
North Carolina has a very powerful overall athletic department, second in the ACC in revenue. They're legit even if you don't consider basketball.

North Carolina's football attendance last year was: 54,667
Duke's: 27,291

How about baseball, North Carolina has been to the tournament 29 times. It's basically an annual thing for them now. Duke? 5 times.

It's basically the same knock on Duke that I have on Virginia Tech. They're each a one trick pony, now I'm not completely against adding Duke, but overall their contributions wouldn't be nearly as significant as North Carolina and it stands to reason the state of North Carolina would take less interest. What is Duke without Coach K? What is Virginia Tech without Beamer? Not much really...
 

TideEngineer08

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UNC and Virginia are the prime targets if we're talking taking ACC teams. Beyond that, Va Tech and NC State would be the consolation prizes.

I just can't see UNC, Virginia, or Duke ever leaving the ACC though. They run that conference. It's one of the reasons the rumors of FSU and Clemson bolting to the Big 12 were so strong.
 

81usaf92

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North Carolina has a very powerful overall athletic department, second in the ACC in revenue. They're legit even if you don't consider basketball.

North Carolina's football attendance last year was: 54,667
Duke's: 27,291

How about baseball, North Carolina has been to the tournament 29 times. It's basically an annual thing for them now. Duke? 5 times.

It's basically the same knock on Duke that I have on Virginia Tech. They're each a one trick pony, now I'm not completely against adding Duke, but overall their contributions wouldn't be nearly as significant as North Carolina and it stands to reason the state of North Carolina would take less interest. What is Duke without Coach K? What is Virginia Tech without Beamer? Not much really...
Kentucky's first championship in basketball was under rupp, FSU didnt win a football championship til Bowden, and Florida didnt win a title in football since 96. All won after their dynasty so it isnt a for sure thing Duke will fade away after Coach K. Duke is also a private school which means a lower attendence and making it to the SEC would boost their attendence.

Also, College baseball isnt a big thing unless you are Texas,LSU,and a few others. 64 teams make it to the tourney as well.

Personally if we got UNC or Duke I think we are just getting our second Kentucky, but it would open up the NC market.
 
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81usaf92

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Folks forget that OU was in a weak position compared to Nebraska and that motivated them greatly in siding with Texas on a number of issues. It appears they were very short-sighted.
I think most people are referencing when the dam broke with aTm and mizzou. Ou knew at that point that if they stayed that Texas would effectively decide all issues since every school besides ou and ksu wouldn't dare challenge Texas since they knew their stock was nothing. Ou should've went independent and waited for the big 10 to look to expand again because now if they leave they will be sued immensely. ATM had the backing of the sec if Baylor followed up with their suit. Ou has no one that is willing to challenge a mega suit by all of the smaller Texas schools combined. Ou is stuck
 

NationalTitles18

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I think most people are referencing when the dam broke with aTm and mizzou. Ou knew at that point that if they stayed that Texas would effectively decide all issues since every school besides ou and ksu wouldn't dare challenge Texas since they knew their stock was nothing. Ou should've went independent and waited for the big 10 to look to expand again because now if they leave they will be sued immensely. ATM had the backing of the sec if Baylor followed up with their suit. Ou has no one that is willing to challenge a mega suit by all of the smaller Texas schools combined. Ou is stuck
I was talking about the origin of the conference and things that happened at that time.
 

bama579

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Virginia or NoCar to the SEC? Are existing SEC members gonna add lacrosse and other revenue negative sports with which the ACC are so proud of? Fcr cultural, Title 9 and other reasons I don't see this happening any time soon.

Texas? Would love to see 'em squirm for a looong while, but that also isn't likely. There is so much potential $$ in the Longwhorns and the state in which they are located that they will remain a power player. Dangit.
 

KrAzY3

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Kentucky's first championship in basketball was under rupp, FSU didnt win a football championship til Bowden, and Florida didnt win a title in football since 96. All won after their dynasty so it isnt a for sure thing Duke will fade away after Coach K. Duke is also a private school which means a lower attendence and making it to the SEC would boost their attendence.

Also, College baseball isnt a big thing unless you are Texas,LSU,and a few others. 64 teams make it to the tourney as well.

Personally if we got UNC or Duke I think we are just getting our second Kentucky, but it would open up the NC market.
C'mon, Rupp started coaching Kentucky in 1930. Now, if this was the year 2050 I might be saying how great Duke's athletic department is... but it isn't yet.

Also, the idea is that making it into the SEC would boost almost anyone's attendance. However, the more you have to work with, say good overall fan support in the case of Virginia and North Carolina, the more you will end up with. It was the same argument I made in favor of Texas A&M, their athletic department was in good overall shape (some refused to acknowledge they were a good addition) and the fan support was there. Once they joined it went even higher though, so yeah, it isn't so much that I think Duke or VT would just be absolute trash in the conference, they're just not the best options. Also, the Kentucky comparison isn't all that off, especially with Duke, but it's Kentucky in a bigger state, so it's like Kentucky with twice as much in subscriber fees.

Virginia or NoCar to the SEC? Are existing SEC members gonna add lacrosse and other revenue negative sports with which the ACC are so proud of? Fcr cultural, Title 9 and other reasons I don't see this happening any time soon.
I don't see it happening soon either, but it doesn't have to. Once the SEC Network really gets going though, what once might have been considered a financial waste might be considered good programming. That goes back to the earlier quote about baseball, it might seem insignificant, but getting subscribers is one thing for the SEC Network. The next thing is ratings, to try to generate content that's interesting enough that people tune in not just for football games, but for basketball, baseball... and who knows what else.
 

KrAzY3

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Wasn't Va's football attendance in the 30k range or below?!
Virginia's attendance last year was 39K. There's not a whole lot to defend about that really, but it was significantly better better than Duke or Vanderbilt. They were pretty mediocre though of course and from what I've seem that's pretty much the worst we could expect from them. Their attendance has slumped though, and it's one reason I'm a bit lukewarm on them.

However, it does show that even when they struggle in football, their stadium won't become a complete ghost town and considering they had that attendance and were still #3 in the ACC in revenue, it shows that their athletic department overall is very healthy. That's why I view them as having little downside, even if they come into the SEC, and they suck horribly at football (like someone will have to), they'll still have a respectable number of fans at their games. Most importantly though, they won't require football success to contribute something of value. I'm not sure we can say that about some other options. I do not see them as a perfect addition either way, I'm pretty firmly in the North Carolina or stand pat crowd really.
 
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champions77

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Virginia's attendance last year was 39K. There's not a whole lot to defend about that really, but it was significantly better better than Duke or Vanderbilt. They were pretty mediocre though of course and from what I've seem that's pretty much the worst we could expect from them. Their attendance has slumped though, and it's one reason I'm a bit lukewarm on them.

However, it does show that even when they struggle in football, their stadium won't become a complete ghost town and considering they had that attendance and were still #3 in the ACC in revenue, it shows that their athletic department overall is very healthy. That's why I view them as having little downside, even if they come into the SEC, and they suck horribly at football (like someone will have to), they'll still have a respectable number of fans at their games. Most importantly though, they won't require football success to contribute something of value. I'm not sure we can say that about some other options. I do not see them as a perfect addition either way, I'm pretty firmly in the North Carolina or stand pat crowd really.
Gosh you would think all of those TV sets would translate into someone actually caring enough to get their butt in the seats? Well at least the academics are really good at NC and UVA. Football? Bama guaranteed to beat either one 98% of the time. That's what is most important.
 

NationalTitles18

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Virginia's attendance last year was 39K. There's not a whole lot to defend about that really, but it was significantly better better than Duke or Vanderbilt. They were pretty mediocre though of course and from what I've seem that's pretty much the worst we could expect from them. Their attendance has slumped though, and it's one reason I'm a bit lukewarm on them.

However, it does show that even when they struggle in football, their stadium won't become a complete ghost town and considering they had that attendance and were still #3 in the ACC in revenue, it shows that their athletic department overall is very healthy. That's why I view them as having little downside, even if they come into the SEC, and they suck horribly at football (like someone will have to), they'll still have a respectable number of fans at their games. Most importantly though, they won't require football success to contribute something of value. I'm not sure we can say that about some other options. I do not see them as a perfect addition either way, I'm pretty firmly in the North Carolina or stand pat crowd really.
There is certainly no "perfect" addition. I believe the SEC propped up the Big12 to 1. avoid a lawsuit and 2. to slow things down a bit to a manageable pace.

My thinking is the SEC will stand pat until its hand is forced. That doesn't mean they aren't spending the time and effort now evaluating, planning, and making inroads. They are doing all that. Just what will be the trigger? Hard to say.
 

KrAzY3

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Gosh you would think all of those TV sets would translate into someone actually caring enough to get their butt in the seats? Well at least the academics are really good at NC and UVA. Football? Bama guaranteed to beat either one 98% of the time. That's what is most important.
Heh, academics at NC turn out to be quite questionable. But, remember the network deals are contingent on TV sets, not even on ratings. They don't even have to care enough to watch to be of value oddly enough.

But, I'd be lying if I said bringing in programs that won't win in football bothers me. Doesn't one bit, makes more sense to me to bring in programs good at everything else, the SEC is already good at football.

I do have a philosophy about this though, it's not just an irrational fear of football powers. First is the obvious, only one team can win a division, only one team can win a conference (unless, you know... Big 12). What this means is it doesn't matter if you come up with a division that has Texas, Oklahoma, LSU, Alabama, Auburn, Texas A&M, Arkansas, and Ole Miss. Only one of those teams will win the division, and as we saw in 2011, even if you have three really good teams, only two of those have any chance whatsoever of playing for a title. They wouldn't even let Arkansas play in a BCS game.

This matters, there's no way around it. You stack football powers on top of football powers and you end up like Arkansas last year. Arkansas was a good team, they dominated one bowl team, beat two Big 12 teams. They end up 2-6 in the SEC though (kind of ironic they end up with as many wins against the Big 12 as they do against the SEC), because someone had to lose. Past a certain point it just becomes unhealthy and with Texas A&M, the SEC West is already on the verge.

The other is the notion that if a football power isn't winning, if a program that's built around winning at football finds themselves unable to do so, there's a real risk that their value as a program starts to deteriorate.

My thinking is the SEC will stand pat until its hand is forced. That doesn't mean they aren't spending the time and effort now evaluating, planning, and making inroads. They are doing all that. Just what will be the trigger? Hard to say.
It worked out perfectly last time they kind of stood on the sidelines. I think it's fine to do that now as well, unless you know, North Carolina comes knocking or something. I don't know either what the trigger will be, truth is there might not be one for a while, a lot of conferences have signed long term contracts. If Oklahoma gets their way and the Big 12 expands, it might settle things for a while.
 

champions77

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Heh, academics at NC turn out to be quite questionable. But, remember the network deals are contingent on TV sets, not even on ratings. They don't even have to care enough to watch to be of value oddly enough.

But, I'd be lying if I said bringing in programs that won't win in football bothers me. Doesn't one bit, makes more sense to me to bring in programs good at everything else, the SEC is already good at football.

I do have a philosophy about this though, it's not just an irrational fear of football powers. First is the obvious, only one team can win a division, only one team can win a conference (unless, you know... Big 12). What this means is it doesn't matter if you come up with a division that has Texas, Oklahoma, LSU, Alabama, Auburn, Texas A&M, Arkansas, and Ole Miss. Only one of those teams will win the division, and as we saw in 2011, even if you have three really good teams, only two of those have any chance whatsoever of playing for a title. They wouldn't even let Arkansas play in a BCS game.

This matters, there's no way around it. You stack football powers on top of football powers and you end up like Arkansas last year. Arkansas was a good team, they dominated one bowl team, beat two Big 12 teams. They end up 2-6 in the SEC though (kind of ironic they end up with as many wins against the Big 12 as they do against the SEC), because someone had to lose. Past a certain point it just becomes unhealthy and with Texas A&M, the SEC West is already on the verge.

The other is the notion that if a football power isn't winning, if a program that's built around winning at football finds themselves unable to do so, there's a real risk that their value as a program starts to deteriorate.


It worked out perfectly last time they kind of stood on the sidelines. I think it's fine to do that now as well, unless you know, North Carolina comes knocking or something. I don't know either what the trigger will be, truth is there might not be one for a while, a lot of conferences have signed long term contracts. If Oklahoma gets their way and the Big 12 expands, it might settle things for a while.
You know you are right KrAzY3, there will be good Teams getting left out, I understand, but you also have to admit that there have always been teams that have been "left out" and even today, as much as the "Final Four" is better than it has been, that's four out of 120 teams.
You know for selfish reasons I would want to see OU in the SEC. Always thought of OU as one of the best, and I look at the SEC as being the very best. Add in the proximity to other schools, the similarities in culture, politics, it just seems from those angles that it makes a lot of sense. Rather have a road trip to Baton Rouge or Tuscaloosa than Ames, Iowa or Manhattan, Kansas. The passion in the SEC is incredible, no other conference comes close.
If I had to guess how this will all sort out, I would guess that the BIG XII adds two more teams. The only teams that are out there are mostly schools that are not Top 20 type programs in football. So what we will do is end up rescuing a couple of schools, who will then be able to strengthen their football programs because they can now recruit to a better conference. That's what happened to TCU, and even though better results have not been seen on the field, it has helped West Virginia too. So now we "rescue" Houston or Cincinnati?

Music stopped, chairs have been taken, and what is left for the Big XII are teams that improve themselves, while not necessarily improving the Big XII. That's why I want OU out.
 

CullmanTide

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I may be wrong but I think the best chance for Oklahoma was early on had they been able to join Nebraska with Missouri and possibly Kansas in a package deal to the Big 10. It's a long shot now but should Texas go independent or leave for another league, the remaining schools would have a chance to get Nebraska back. I see Texas as poison for any league.
 
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champions77

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I may be wrong but I think the best chance for Oklahoma was early on had they been able to join Nebraska with Missouri and possibly Kansas in a package deal to the Big 10. It's a long shot now but should Texas go independent or leave for another league, the remaining schools would have a chance to get Nebraska back. I see Texas as poison for any league.
Cullman I don't think that deal was ever out there. B1G is really set on members being members of the AAU, Nebraska was up until they joined the B1G, then lost membership shortly thereafter. I do not believe that OU was ever considered, nor would OU be interested without a Texas school in the conference due to recruiting concerns. Nebraska used to recruit Texas pretty successfully, today, not so much. Same thing when Arky left the SW Conference for the SEC. Recruiting Texas was affected in a negative way.
Texas is a poison and continues to this day. We've put up with their shenanigans more than we should have to guarantee that game in Dallas. That game is not guaranteed if we are in a different Conference. You see how they treated A&M.

Texas may find that they will need to go Independent. They are not going to give up the LHN and the baggage they bring might limit them as to entry into another Conference. I understand their new AD Steve Patterson is a piece of work who will maintain quite well their reputation of rubbing folks the wrong way.
 
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