Here we go again: Expansion carousel

Redwood Forrest

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There are Big 12 schools taking notice of the anxiety some Pac-12 people are experiencing several years after expanding from 10 to 12. It's not all roses for the Pac-12, which fully owns the Pac-12 Network. Thus, the Pac-12 is distributing a lower percentage of its revenue to members than other major conferences pay to their schools.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...g-12-now-is-the-time-to-invest-in-your-sports

I knew the Big 12 is looking (undercover) but I did not know Pac 12 was having second thoughts.
 

GrayTide

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Thanks for the link? Cincinnati and Memphis would really add to the overall strength of the Big Whatever. :rolleye2:
 
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selmaborntidefan

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The rest of the country needs to learn that just because you mimic the SEC does not make you the SEC.

Expansion made some sense for the Big Ten given the environment at the time (and notice they're not even in the article). Most expansion has been phenomenally stupid.

When StubHub is selling $3 seats to conference championship games then your product is not worth having (the ACC). And the Pac 12 is in the unfortunate seat of having to have the game AT HOME for one of the schools just to ensure it isn't played in front of an empty stadium.
 

Redwood Forrest

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The rest of the country needs to learn that just because you mimic the SEC does not make you the SEC.

Expansion made some sense for the Big Ten given the environment at the time (and notice they're not even in the article). Most expansion has been phenomenally stupid.

When StubHub is selling $3 seats to conference championship games then your product is not worth having (the ACC). And the Pac 12 is in the unfortunate seat of having to have the game AT HOME for one of the schools just to ensure it isn't played in front of an empty stadium.
The Big10 states have a population of 101,796,866. SEC 92,237,058. ACC 83,388,411. Pac12 63,433,919 and Big12 37,689,527. It appears the half size Big 12 folks watch a lot more college football than the Left Coast.
 

TideEngineer08

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The rest of the country needs to learn that just because you mimic the SEC does not make you the SEC.

Expansion made some sense for the Big Ten given the environment at the time (and notice they're not even in the article). Most expansion has been phenomenally stupid.

When StubHub is selling $3 seats to conference championship games then your product is not worth having (the ACC). And the Pac 12 is in the unfortunate seat of having to have the game AT HOME for one of the schools just to ensure it isn't played in front of an empty stadium.
The PAC 12 tried the new San Francisco 49ers stadium for their title game last year but it was a colossal failure attendance-wise.

And you nailed the problem. The reason their network is struggling is that it just doesn't mean that much to folks out there. Certainly not close to the level of the SEC or Big Ten. Those are the only 2 conferences with the fan interest to have a network and expand the conference. The ACC has maybe one or two teams that have that kind of interest (Clemson and maybe Florida State). The Big 12 has about 2 also at the moment in OU and Texas. You can't grow your conference to the mega-level of the SEC and Big Ten with only 2 teams that have dedicated fan interest. If any network in the SEC footprint didn't carry the SEC Network, there would have been millions of people canceling their contracts and finding other providers. The PAC 12 Network still isn't carried on Direct TV.

I think it is far more likely that Oklahoma and/or Texas look to leave than it is the Big 12 expanding. The only logical candidate for them right now is BYU and that isn't happening with the no Sunday play. None of the rest offer enough clout to bring in. Ultimately, I think Oklahoma bolts to the SEC and brings Ok State with them, Texas won't give up its network and they'll go independent, West Virginia joins the ACC and the rest matriculate to the lesser conferences. Maybe the Big Ten grabs Kansas/Kansas State.
 

KrAzY3

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Ultimately, I think Oklahoma bolts to the SEC and brings Ok State with them
Oh I hope not, expanding into that tiny state makes no sense and never did.

To me, the only real logical expansion targets as of right now would be Notre Dame (Indiana population 6.59 million, Notre Dame is also favored in other states), North Carolina (9.9 million, premiere basketball program) and Virginia (8.3 million, bit of a consolation prize after the other two). I don't see that happening anytime soon though.

Honestly, I haven't heard any real expansion talk, the only real possibility is the Big 12 moving to 12 teams, but that doesn't figure to shake up much since they'd be going after low hanging fruit.
 

TideEngineer08

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Oh I hope not, expanding into that tiny state makes no sense and never did.

To me, the only real logical expansion targets as of right now would be Notre Dame (Indiana population 6.59 million, Notre Dame is also favored in other states), North Carolina (9.9 million, premiere basketball program) and Virginia (8.3 million, bit of a consolation prize after the other two). I don't see that happening anytime soon though.

Honestly, I haven't heard any real expansion talk, the only real possibility is the Big 12 moving to 12 teams, but that doesn't figure to shake up much since they'd be going after low hanging fruit.
I knew that would get a response from you. :smile:

I didn't say I wanted that to happen. I just think this is more likely to head in the direction of the Big 12 breaking up, not expanding. And if that happens, I don't see Texas joining another conference. They will either try to cobble together something else as they've done before, or go Independent. They aren't relinquishing control of their precious network.

OU really, really doesn't want to lose Texas for recruiting purposes, but they can simply pick up an annual game with A&M in the SEC.

Again... I'm not hoping any of that happens.

Frankly, my vote would be for BYU and UCF/Cincinnati to join the Big 12. No, it's not a lot of hoopla but it gets them to 12 and a championship game making them more of an equal player with the rest of the conferences. I'm not in favor of them getting a title game with only 10 teams, and I don't like how they get to manipulate the calendar and get an extra bye week with their round robin schedule.
 
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Redwood Forrest

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I knew that would get a response from you. :smile:

I didn't say I wanted that to happen. I just think this is more likely to head in the direction of the Big 12 breaking up, not expanding. And if that happens, I don't see Texas joining another conference. They will either try to cobble together something else as they've done before, or go Independent. They aren't relinquishing control of their precious network.

OU really, really doesn't want to lose Texas for recruiting purposes, but they can simply pick up an annual game with A&M in the SEC.

Again... I'm not hoping any of that happens.

Frankly, my vote would be for BYU and UCF/Cincinnati to join the Big 12. No, it's not a lot of hoopla but it gets them to 12 and a championship game making them more of an equal player with the rest of the conferences. I'm not in favor of them getting a title game with only 10 teams, and I don't like how they get to manipulate the calendar and get an extra bye week with their round robin schedule.
This is why I love this site, you gave me a new thought on Texas. Could Texas pull a Notre Dame and join the AAC American Conference and play a five game schedule in football? They could keep their independent status and longhorn network. The AAC would love the status Texas could bring to them.
 

selmaborntidefan

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The Big10 states have a population of 101,796,866. SEC 92,237,058. ACC 83,388,411. Pac12 63,433,919 and Big12 37,689,527. It appears the half size Big 12 folks watch a lot more college football than the Left Coast.
Of course, they do.

There's a helluva lot more to do in California than there is in Iowa or Kansas. You can go to the ocean almost any day of the year comfortably in CA, OR and parts of WA.

In Iowa, Kansas and Oklahoma, you sit inside freezing and watch ballgames.

Not hard to figure that one out.

:)
 

GrayTide

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This is why I love this site, you gave me a new thought on Texas. Could Texas pull a Notre Dame and join the AAC American Conference and play a five game schedule in football? They could keep their independent status and longhorn network. The AAC would love the status Texas could bring to them.
If I am not mistaken ND's five game football schedule is against ACC opponents not AAC teams. I agree with KrAzY, I would hate to see OU and Okie St join the SEC, but it is all about $$$ and nothing else. As for Texas, who cares what happens to them and their succssful network.
 

Redwood Forrest

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If I am not mistaken ND's five game football schedule is against ACC opponents not AAC teams. I agree with KrAzY, I would hate to see OU and Okie St join the SEC, but it is all about $$$ and nothing else. As for Texas, who cares what happens to them and their succssful network.
Yes, I meant Texas could join the AAC (not the ACC) because the ACC does not need another part-timer. They got the one the wanted and needed for a status symbol. The AAC is in the same boat, they need Texas and would gladly work out a deal with them.
 

Redwood Forrest

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Yes, I meant Texas could join the AAC (not the ACC) because the ACC does not need another part-timer. They got the one the wanted and needed for a status symbol. The AAC is in the same boat, they need Texas and would gladly work out a deal with them.
Speaking of that, what is wrong with an eight team conference? The Big 8 and the SWC were eight teams for many, many years. Instead of four 16 team conferences maybe we need eight 8 team conferences. An eight team playoff is possible that way.
 

GrayTide

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Speaking of that, what is wrong with an eight team conference? The Big 8 and the SWC were eight teams for many, many years. Instead of four 16 team conferences maybe we need eight 8 team conferences. An eight team playoff is possible that way.
I personally would favor eight 8 team conferences. Everybody plays everybody and there is no need for any conference championship games. The extra game (CC Game) then takes the 8 teams to 4. I would prefer this also it makes sure no conference has two teams in the final 8. Win your conference or go to Shreveport.
 

rgw

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The Pac-12 is having buyer's remorse because they picked the two weakest expansion pieces in the whole reshuffling from 2010 and forward. Utah was effectively like the Big Ten adding Rutgers, but instead of just being a "keeping par move" like it was for the Big Ten with Rutgers...it was their crown jewel. The lesson should not be learning that expansion is bad but instead that expansion should be athletics and market-share driven instead of letting the academics hijack your candidate pool. The Pac-10 should have added BYU and Utah but that was never going to get the support needed.


Teams the Big-12 should be considering:

BYU (Arguably the crown jewel still out there for the picking considering the large LDS following nationally)
Cincy (Gives WVU a buddy, solid in the two revenue sports)
Boise State (Not as strong of a choice as the first two but still viable)
Houston (An obvious choice for trying to compete with TAMU bringing the SEC into East Texas)
Arkansas (A pipedream but they might as well send out feelers if for no other reason than making the new commish sweat a bit)
SMU (Houston is preferable because the Big-12 has a strong hold on the Dallas area anyway)
 

champions77

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Of course, they do.

There's a helluva lot more to do in California than there is in Iowa or Kansas. You can go to the ocean almost any day of the year comfortably in CA, OR and parts of WA.

In Iowa, Kansas and Oklahoma, you sit inside freezing and watch ballgames.

Not hard to figure that one out.

:)
In Oklahoma you sit there freezing? Norman in 180 miles from where you live. Better include Texas as freezing too. Including Oklahoma (Norman gets about 5 inches of snow a year) with Iowa, (Ames, Iowa gets about 28 inches of snow a year) is a silly comparison.
 

JDCrimson

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At this point I wonder if OU would be better off jumping off Texas's coattails and jumping on A&M's coattials?

If OU and A&M were to schedule an annual game early in the season it would look to me like they could both further undermine Texas's influence within the state and pave the way for OU'S entry into to the SEC once the financial incentive has been validated. I think such a move would really cripple Texas.

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Redwood Forrest

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The Pac-12 is having buyer's remorse because they picked the two weakest expansion pieces in the whole reshuffling from 2010 and forward. Utah was effectively like the Big Ten adding Rutgers, but instead of just being a "keeping par move" like it was for the Big Ten with Rutgers...it was their crown jewel. The lesson should not be learning that expansion is bad but instead that expansion should be athletics and market-share driven instead of letting the academics hijack your candidate pool. The Pac-10 should have added BYU and Utah but that was never going to get the support needed.


Teams the Big-12 should be considering:

BYU (Arguably the crown jewel still out there for the picking considering the large LDS following nationally)
Cincy (Gives WVU a buddy, solid in the two revenue sports)
Boise State (Not as strong of a choice as the first two but still viable)
Houston (An obvious choice for trying to compete with TAMU bringing the SEC into East Texas)
Arkansas (A pipedream but they might as well send out feelers if for no other reason than making the new commish sweat a bit)
SMU (Houston is preferable because the Big-12 has a strong hold on the Dallas area anyway)
Given the Big 12's track record in the past I predict they will add Hawaii and UMass.
 

CullmanTide

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At this point I wonder if OU would be better off jumping off Texas's coattails and jumping on A&M's coattials?

If OU and A&M were to schedule an annual game early in the season it would look to me like they could both further undermine Texas's influence within the state and pave the way for OU'S entry into to the SEC once the financial incentive has been validated. I think such a move would really cripple Texas.

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Oklahoma to the SEC is never going to happen. Texas and Oklahoma should have went to the Pac 12 when they had the chance.
 

selmaborntidefan

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In Oklahoma you sit there freezing? Norman in 180 miles from where you live. Better include Texas as freezing too. Including Oklahoma (Norman gets about 5 inches of snow a year) with Iowa, (Ames, Iowa gets about 28 inches of snow a year) is a silly comparison.
I will grant I should have worded it better since I was thinking November and December. I do know they've gotten some bad snows in Tulsa where my uncle and aunt live.

My bigger point, of course, was that they would obviously watch more games in Iowa and KS because of the weather (plus there's little to do) but limiting it "just" to Norman, oh well. That said, the way I said it certainly was not the smartest.
 

Crimson1967

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I think Oklahoma should have made a bud for the Big Ten. They would be a better fit there culturally and athletically and could renew the Nebraska rivalry. But they sold their soul to Bevo and leaving little brother behind might cause political problems at home.


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