HUNH Injuries

im4uainva

All-SEC
Jul 3, 2011
1,080
39
67
Charlottesville, Va
I was sitting pondering, with the acknowledgement of concussions changing the way Football is played, that with the advent of the HUNH style of play, what will happen with/when the first lawsuit is filed that claims the HUNH had contributed to an unnecessary injury. It has been stated that this style of offense has that potential and is considered to be dangerous. Is there any other form of competition that permits one side to begin play before their opponent is prepared to properly defend themselves? Of course, with some teams, I presume they feel that is the only way they can win.


Roll Tide!
 

Redwood Forrest

Hall of Fame
Sep 19, 2003
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This issue will most likely be decided by (like everything else, it seems) insurance companies and their lawyers and doctors. I don't have anything against any of the above but it seems a fact of life. Just checked on having an engine replaced in my car and the first two auto shops told me "our insurance won't let us do engine swaps or rebuilds." The next two did swaps so I took one of those. I guess they had different insurance.

Maybe they use the insurance company as an excuse? I was going to buy a lawnmower but their insurance company would not let them deliver. They can deliver and install home appliances :conf2: so I am thinking they get to charge for the one and not the other and use the insurance as an excuse.
 

Bama Reb

Suspended
Nov 2, 2005
14,446
0
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On the lake and in the woods, AL
This issue will most likely be decided by (like everything else, it seems) insurance companies and their lawyers and doctors. I don't have anything against any of the above but it seems a fact of life. Just checked on having an engine replaced in my car and the first two auto shops told me "our insurance won't let us do engine swaps or rebuilds." The next two did swaps so I took one of those. I guess they had different insurance.

Maybe they use the insurance company as an excuse? I was going to buy a lawnmower but their insurance company would not let them deliver. They can deliver and install home appliances :conf2: so I am thinking they get to charge for the one and not the other and use the insurance as an excuse.
Not trying to sidetrack the thread, but I bought a gas stove from a retailer who claimed to deliver and install. They delivered but then said that state laws prevented them from installing. That would have to be done by my propane vendor.
Why not just be truthful about it before the sale?
 

im4uainva

All-SEC
Jul 3, 2011
1,080
39
67
Charlottesville, Va
has the allegation that the HUNH causes more injuries ever been proven true?
I don't think so. There have been suggestions that the possibility of injury has increased due to the speed of the HUNH and the resulting absence of substitutions after each play. The HUNH offense is like a 'hit you while you're not looking...gotcha!' A maneuver that would be used by a coward, or by someone who knows they wouldn't be victorious in an equally controlled contest. Personally, I don't care for it. If Bama continues on that path, well, I'll live with it. Bama has so many quality players that they could possibly platoon defenses to efficiently counter the HUNH, but most other teams won't be able to. The more fatigued players become, the possibility of injury increases. I think that has been asserted by some more qualified that I. Hopefully, that bug won't bite Bama.

Roll Tide!
 

davefrat

Hall of Fame
Jun 4, 2002
5,103
3,733
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Hopewell, VA
More plays = the possibility for more injuries. Pretty simple math.
presumably true, but not absolutely so.

I'm not a fan of the HUNH, but until I see some actual evidence, I view the complaints about player safety as nothing more than an argument made against the HUNH by people who simply don't like it and don't want to have to adjust to it.

most of it comes off as "this ain't manly man football like my granddaddy played" to me.
 

Redwood Forrest

Hall of Fame
Sep 19, 2003
11,040
905
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Boaz, AL USA
More plays = the possibility for more injuries. Pretty simple math.
Logic and law of averages would suggest this but that is not a valid argument because they could just keep the HUNH and revert back to nine games a year to cut down injuries. One of the reasons for not having a playoff was to avoid injuries and give more class time to the student-athlete.
 

CrimsonForce

Hall of Fame
Dec 20, 2012
12,757
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I was the under the impression that student athletes signed a waiver stating something to the effect of the school is not financially responsible for personal injury other than due medical care. Could be wrong..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Dr. Van Nostran

All-SEC
Jan 27, 2006
1,093
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3 miles from Bryant Denny Stadium.
No one brought up this lame injury excuse when they added the 12th game to the schedule 10 or so years ago. Or the Conference Championship Games 20 plus years ago. We all know why it was brought up, because Coach Saban was having great difficulty defending it. Now that he has adapted better to stopping it he is actually incorporating it into his offense. Where is his concern for more injuries now??
 

davefrat

Hall of Fame
Jun 4, 2002
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Hopewell, VA
I'm no barner (M.A. from bama) but I too think that saban used the injury complaint to bolster his strategic opposition to the HUNH. And as asked and answered, no one has yet substantiated a link between the HUNH and more injuries. I don't know how much it's been studied, but I believe sabans opposition to it was purely about player safety as much as I believe that he had nothing to do with his agent orchestrating the saban to Texas fiasco.

And why/how would saban recant? He either believed it is more dangerous or he didn't.

Even if the stats showed he was wrong he'd have no reason to recant, unless it was to say "look, I never believed it anyways, it was really all about stopping people from running that style of offense."
 
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RTR91

Super Moderator
Nov 23, 2007
39,407
6
0
Prattville
If a player wanted to attempt to file a lawsuit against a program for an injury suffered from a schematic standpoint, he could attempt to file one if his team run or played against a spread offense. I recall hearing some NFL analysts discuss the problems from spread offenses due to players coming across the field and into open areas.

Think about it this way - which is going to be a harder hit for a WR? Coming across the middle and hit by a safety 12 yards off the line of scrimmage or coming across the middle and hit by a safety 20 yards off the line?
 

GreatDanish

Hall of Fame
Nov 22, 2005
6,079
0
0
TN
First off, there will never be "proof" either way. You can't randomly assign teams to adopt different offensive philosophies and assign their opponents in such a way to make comparisons. And, you can't run the HUNH in a laboratory.
Secondly, I'm curious what people think. What if slow and strong actually increases injuries? What if stronger players who are more well-rested can make harder hits leading to more injury? What if the fast pace causes players to sub more and teams to plan to distribute time more evenly so that it's not the same players getting hit over and over again throughout a game?

I'm not saying I think that's the case. Just asking the questions.

Is the assumption that "fast" teams lose more players to injury?
 

James Eagle

1st Team
Aug 9, 2011
369
1
42
North Georgia
Since "it's usually about the money"....The only thing that will slow down the HUNH mentality is when it starts affecting the time allotted for TV commercials. Until then it's full speed ahead!
 

KrAzY3

Hall of Fame
Jan 18, 2006
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I don't know how much it's been studied, but I believe sabans opposition to it was purely about player safety as much as I believe that he had nothing to do with his agent orchestrating the saban to Texas fiasco.
You might not be a barner, but you said one of the most scathing things I've ever read here, about Saban, during the so called "Texas fiasco". Every now and then you let some bias show through... you're not objective on the subject, if there's a negative viewpoint to be had in regards to Saban you usually manage to have it.

I'm curious what people think. What if slow and strong actually increases injuries? What if stronger players who are more well-rested can make harder hits leading to more injury? What if the fast pace causes players to sub more and teams to plan to distribute time more evenly so that it's not the same players getting hit over and over again throughout a game?
First, I would say I think "slow and strong" as you put it can create more of certain types of injuries. There might be more mass involved, it has to stress certain points of the body more, etc... however, this has to be focused around the primary area of concern, which is head injuries. How they are caused and when they are caused is highly relevant. First, high speed plays are more likely to lead to the types of collisions that lead to concussions. There's a reason they put those rules in to try and protect receivers, that was the type of wide open play that could lead to a guy getting his "bell rung" so to speak. In the same respect it's one reason they have so much protection for kick returners. So, while I agree certain types of injuries might increase under a slower pace of play, clearly the types of hits that tend to lead to concussion are both kind of flukes and increase in probability the more plays are run, but they also can very easily happen during fast, sloppy play. Remember, there's an issue with women soccer players getting concussions. Size and strength is not the main factor.

In either case though the sheer quantity of plays will increase the health risks overall. Your point about subbing is interesting, since that's one of the major issues I have with the HUNH, the inability for players to sub in and out. The problem is, if someone is hurt, or might be hurt, it takes a bit of time to ascertain that. The coach, the ref, even the player them self might need a few seconds to figure that out. Is this pain going away? Is this pain serious? Is he hurt? Do I need to stop the play? All those questions are made to be answered in under ten seconds in some situations (they did after all block the ten seconds rule). There's no way that's not a risk to the athletes. If you're an athlete and you know you have to run straight to the line of scrimmage after the play, if you're limping, or what ever, you probably just run up there anyway. You can't be out of position while you try and figure out if your hurt bad or not. The refs and coaches aren't able to pay any attention either, because they're tripping over themselves to worry about the next play to. If they dealt with that issue properly, it would alleviate a lot of the concern I have.

But, the entire HUNH approach is a dangerous one in the long run. Players not getting set, players not being able to sub out, running as many plays as possible, a style of offense designed to push the other team to the point of exhaustion without letting them exit the game, and something that is built around distracting and confusing the players, all those things pose threats. Think about this, if a defensive player is focused and where he needs to be, well rested and so on, sure he can give a player a good lick. But, he knows what types of hits he can't do, however, you take the same guy, you confuse him, you distract him, you wear him out a bit, he might get lazy and tackle a guy wrong, or he might just get frustrated. Either way, the coaches are now coaching them to tackle in such a way as to not cause head injury, confusing those guys as much as possible seems like it could undo some of that coaching could it not? So, I mean it's a complicated issues but looking at them piece by piece I simply see no way to arrive to the conclusion that a slower pace of play is going to lead to more permanent injuries (which I believe is the relevant point here).
 
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davefrat

Hall of Fame
Jun 4, 2002
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You might not be a barner, but you said one of the most scathing things I've ever read here, about Saban, during the so called "Texas fiasco". Every now and then you let some bias show through... you're not objective on the subject, if there's a negative viewpoint to be had in regards to Saban you usually manage to have it.


First, I would say I think "slow and strong" as you put it can create more of certain types of injuries. There might be more mass involved, it has to stress certain points of the body more, etc... however, this has to be focused around the primary area of concern, which is head injuries. How they are caused and when they are caused is highly relevant. First, high speed plays are more likely to lead to the types of collisions that lead to concussions. There's a reason they put those rules in to try and protect receivers, that was the type of wide open play that could lead to a guy getting his "bell rung" so to speak. In the same respect it's one reason they have so much protection for kick returners. So, while I agree certain types of injuries might increase under a slower pace of play, clearly the types of hits that tend to lead to concussion are both kind of flukes and increase in probability the more plays are run, but they also can very easily happy during fast, sloppy play. Remember, there's an issue with women soccer players getting concussions. Size and strength is not the main factor.

In either case though the sheer quantity of plays will increase the health risks overall. Your point about subbing is interesting, since that's one of the major issues I have with the HUNH, the inability for players to sub in and out. The problem is, if someone is hurt, or might be hurt, it takes a bit of time to ascertain that. The coach, the ref, even the player them self might need a few seconds to figure that out. Is this pain going away? Is this pain serious? Is he hurt? Do I need to stop the play? All those questions are made to be answered in under ten seconds in some situations (they did after all block the ten seconds rule). There's no way that's not a risk to the athletes. If you're an athlete and you know you have to run straight to the line of scrimmage after the play, if you're limping, or what ever, you probably just run up there anyway. You can't be out of position while you try and figure out if your hurt bad or not. The refs and coaches aren't able to pay any attention either, because they're tripping over themselves to worry about the next play to. If they dealt with that issue properly, it would alleviate a lot of the concern I have.

But, the entire HUNH approach is a dangerous one in the long run. Players not getting set, players not being able to sub out, running as many plays as possible, a style of offense designed to push the other team to the point of exhaustion without letting them exit the game, and something that is built around distracting and confusing the players, all those things pose threats. Think about this, if a defensive player is focused and where he needs to be, well rested and so on, sure he can give a player a good lick. But, he knows what types of hits he can't do, however, you take the same guy, you confuse him, you distract him, you wear him out a bit, he might get lazy and tackle a guy wrong, or he might just get frustrated. Either way, the coaches are now coaching them to tackle in such a way as to not cause head injury, confusing those guys as much as possible seems like it could undo some of that coaching could it not? So, I mean it's a complicated issues but looking at them piece by piece I simply see no way to arrive to the conclusion that a slower pace of play is going to lead to more permanent injuries (which I believe is the relevant point here).
It's hardly scathing to opine that the most successful and controlling presence in college football actually knew his agent was trying to play his present employer against a wanting suitor for his client's gain.

Do you still believe that sabans not going to be the coach at Alabama too?
 

GreatDanish

Hall of Fame
Nov 22, 2005
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...
In either case though the sheer quantity of plays will increase the health risks overall. Your point about subbing is interesting, since that's one of the major issues I have with the HUNH, the inability for players to sub in and out. ...
I've read a little bit and thought about it, and this is honestly something I can't really come to a conclusion about. It's like the HUNH allows for fewer "on the spot" substitutions. But, teams have to depend on more players and have to have a substitution plan before the game so that no one is out there every play for the whole game. So, that would seem to decrease the number of injuries related to repeated hits although exposing more players to them. But, of course, it could lead to a minor injury becoming a major injury by not letting a hurt player get off the field.

The argument about "more plays = more injuries" is difficult to establish for two reasons, IMO. First, different plays and different styles (and other factors) affect injuries differently. It's not a simple equation. Secondly, if we need to go the route, "therefore we need fewer plays," we then need to talk not only about shorter seasons but also less practice. At what point can you say, "this number of plays is sufficient in dealing with injuries so we will practice X number of times and play Y number of games?" It doesn't mean the argument is wrong, but you also need to justify the other end of the argument should someone make the claim they need less practice time and fewer games because of the number of injuries.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Mar 31, 2000
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If someone said playing 12 games would increase the number of injuries on average NOBODY would argue that point. And what's the root analysis? The fact you have more plays. Consequently, how anyone can sit there and say, "More plays does NOT translate to more injuries," I don't know. And in this case we're talking about injuries caused by players being on the field play after play after play after play with no respite.

If FATIGUE is not a contributing factor then why do teams try to sub out as often as possible? I don't honestly see how anyone can plausibly argue otherwise. Now.....whether that translates into a valid reason for putting the brakes on HUNH is actually something else altogether different.

Do I think Saban's sole concern was injury? No.

But I also don't think Malzahn is blissfully unaware of all the 12 men on the field and linemen past the line of scrimmage fouls his team gets away with, either. That's precisely why he uses it. Force him into traditional football and he'll be back at Springdale High School.
 

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