I didn't miss it, that and many other statements were part of the basis of my statements. Like other statements in the book, that statement neither proves or disproves any existence of a supreme being, proves or disproves that being is good or evil, or guarantees that the world would be better if faith goes away. The fact that many can be manipulated to do things based on faith does not mean they cannot be manipulated in another way. Someone can just as easily be motivated to fly an aircraft into a building if they believe their children and family will reap a great reward for what they did. They just have to trust the people (or be provided ample proof) asking them to do it. The motivation, reasoning and proofs behind those convincing them just changes.
Arian Foster goes public as a non-believer
- Thread starter Jon
- Start date
well, it's called The End of Faith, not The End of God so not sure what you were expecting.
Science is more concerned with what is true than with what is right, but even so, it is true that morality is a culturally relative construct with its basis in the social behavior exhibited by many types of animals.
Fair point.
I did expect him to address it more or less along the lines that Dawkins did in "The God Delusion"
Another fair point, but not really what I thought we were discussing. I did open myself up by stating I had not heard a cogent argument for how it could have developed.
I agree that cultures makes a great deal of difference in what people see as right and wrong. I am not convinced that video displays an innate sense of right and wrong in the monkeys. The monkey just wants what is preferred when it is available.
Last edited:
Lots of things floated over to this continent that was not good for the residing peoples already here that proved to be deadly to them in fact. The Middle Eastern religions, faiths to be one! But as the saying goes, to the victors go the spoils. The Abrahamic religions certainly have been the victors up till now no doubt!!
Proving 2,000 year old myths and beyond as truth takes a mighty leap of faith, which always ends up as a holy spirit types of claim as proof no one can replicate to a non believer. If it could, we would all believe, there would only be one truth, one religion and one god that all would worship equally. Since that is not remotely the case then there is no proof of anything coming from that god awful piece of desert land that many call, "the Holy Land"!
A myth of a myth is only a myth!
Proving 2,000 year old myths and beyond as truth takes a mighty leap of faith, which always ends up as a holy spirit types of claim as proof no one can replicate to a non believer. If it could, we would all believe, there would only be one truth, one religion and one god that all would worship equally. Since that is not remotely the case then there is no proof of anything coming from that god awful piece of desert land that many call, "the Holy Land"!
A myth of a myth is only a myth!
We have people who deny the Holocaust happened 70 years ago but you think if, say, the signs of Jesus were replicated in someone nowadays it would result in universal belief? Assuming a fundamentalist stance, it didn't even happen then. And as I say, we have people denying the Holocaust. I had a professor who was from Brazil. In 1982, there was this little thing called the Falkland Islands War. He was in Argentina and most people there didn't even know there had been a war with the government controlling the news.
Of utmost importance, however, is that a number of folks are demanding absolute certainty before believing. If you had absolute certainty there wouldn't need to be any "believing" or "faith" at all.
I grant reasons people express for faith are not always convincing to others, but setting up an impossible standard before investigation is hardly the "objective investigation," either.
Jon, I kept my end of the deal. Read Harris's book thoroughly. Would take a book to answer all of it. I think we both knew neither one would be convinced but I did read it as promised. There are some very valid points he makes, but I obviously disagree with the main tenets of his faith.
First, as to one of his main points and what you referenced; that people of faith may do something evil and expect to be rewarded for it afterthis life. The Christian faith regarding the judgment of God is to have the opposite effect on its people. Knowing that there is an ultimate judgment that will be right and just by an all knowing God is grounds to not do evil or even return evil for evil. This is taught throughout the New Testament. Here are a couple of examples from the two main apostles.
Paul: “Do not repay evil for evil. If it is possible live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge but leave room for God’s wrath. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
Peter: “Do not repay evil with evil, or insult with insult,but with blessing, because to this you were called so you may inherit a blessing.”
Harris does not argue that Christians have failed at times to live up to what their Scriptures teach (that would be true). He argues that the teaching is evil. The teaching of the Scriptures though is to live godly lives while you wait on the appearing of Christ, and his right judgment. It calls on Christians negatively to not do evil, and positively to do good, in view of what happens after this life. Harris’ prime example of Christians killing children to send them to heaven is an example of a gross misinterpretation of faith and evil on the part of those doing the killing. Contrary to his assertion, there is no warrant for it in the Scriptures.
I will say a few words in response to his chapter on Christians and Jewish persecution. There is no doubt there is a lot in history that is painful for Christians to read that Harris rightly brings out. Christians have at times wrongly persecuted Jews. Harris’assertion that the persecution comes from the words of Scripture is in error though. It is true that the Scriptures warn Jewish people of the wrath of God for rejecting Christ, but it is not a ground for persecuting Jews in this life.As a matter of fact Jesus specifically tells his disciples to begin preaching the gospel to the Jews in Jerusalem first and then go to the ends of the earth. Paul says to Christians that it is his heart’s desire that the Jews be saved.Christianity is salvation by grace. Those who are recipients of grace are not to persecute those who reject grace, but there is declarative warning out of concern for their spiritual welfare. Bottom line, there is no Scriptural warrant for a Christian to persecute a Jew, yet there is Scriptural warrant for them to do good to Jews, as many have in Christian history.
The heart of Harris’ book is his frustration with the lack of evidence for faith; this certainty without evidence he calls “dehumanizing.”He repeats this over and over. He says people of faith refuse to acknowledge the obvious; that the problem in the world is people believe the Creator of the universe has written a book.
His words have definite irony because the Christian faith says that the answer to the problem of the world is that the Creator has inspired the writing of a book and that there is plain evidence that this is so. In fact the Christian Scriptures say the problem with man is he will not concede what is obvious; that God has revealed himself in the Scriptures. I will not comment on Harris’ end note of “144 contradictions” in the Bible. Others have made better arguments than Harris about this and these arguments have been addressed in many books. To be fair, Harris does not even wish to enter into this; he thinks it absurd to consider it anyway. He says the Bible is a “book showing neither unity of style nor internal consistency.”
He ridicules prophesy fulfillment without understanding it or seeing how it helps show the internal consistency of the Scripture. He sees the miracles Jesus did as mere “spectacles,” with no evidence. Yet the miracles Jesus did were not only written about in the Old Testament, they were a fulfillment of Old Testament history.
For example, in the Old Testament the Israelites were in the desert without food. They were going to die unless they were miraculously provided for and God did so by sending manna from heaven. In the New Testament,when Jesus is teaching a crowd in the desert, they have no food and he miraculous provides for them in the feeding of the 5000. He could have just sent them home, but he does the miracle and announces that he is the “Bread ofLife.” Obviously the Bible is saying he is the same God as was in the wilderness with the Israelites. Everything Jesus does was foreshadowed and written about in the Old Testament. In fact, the history was ordered in anticipation of Christ.
The Apostle Paul asserts that the resurrection of Christ was witnessed by people who were still alive when he was writing. Now, I understand how Harris takes statements like this. But the apostle says two things especially to believers. First, Christ's death and resurrection was according to the Scriptures, that is, it is consistent with the whole Old Testament, and secondly it is a historical fact. He goes on to say if you don’t believe those things, then eat, and drink like the rest of the world for tomorrow we die.
The Christian assertion is that Harris is the one who refuses to concede what is obvious. It isn’t his reason that keeps him from God, it is his heart. He, like Ahab, with rage pursues the white whale with harpoon after harpoon, yet is consumed with his own vanity and fury in the futile attempt to rid himself of what is his superior. It is only one who knows of reconciliation with the transcendent God who can admire his Word amidst all the vanities of men. Harris, like everybody else, has his own religion. He assertsthat the evidence says his is right. The Bible asserts that it has given evidence that it is of God.
First, as to one of his main points and what you referenced; that people of faith may do something evil and expect to be rewarded for it afterthis life. The Christian faith regarding the judgment of God is to have the opposite effect on its people. Knowing that there is an ultimate judgment that will be right and just by an all knowing God is grounds to not do evil or even return evil for evil. This is taught throughout the New Testament. Here are a couple of examples from the two main apostles.
Paul: “Do not repay evil for evil. If it is possible live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge but leave room for God’s wrath. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
Peter: “Do not repay evil with evil, or insult with insult,but with blessing, because to this you were called so you may inherit a blessing.”
Harris does not argue that Christians have failed at times to live up to what their Scriptures teach (that would be true). He argues that the teaching is evil. The teaching of the Scriptures though is to live godly lives while you wait on the appearing of Christ, and his right judgment. It calls on Christians negatively to not do evil, and positively to do good, in view of what happens after this life. Harris’ prime example of Christians killing children to send them to heaven is an example of a gross misinterpretation of faith and evil on the part of those doing the killing. Contrary to his assertion, there is no warrant for it in the Scriptures.
I will say a few words in response to his chapter on Christians and Jewish persecution. There is no doubt there is a lot in history that is painful for Christians to read that Harris rightly brings out. Christians have at times wrongly persecuted Jews. Harris’assertion that the persecution comes from the words of Scripture is in error though. It is true that the Scriptures warn Jewish people of the wrath of God for rejecting Christ, but it is not a ground for persecuting Jews in this life.As a matter of fact Jesus specifically tells his disciples to begin preaching the gospel to the Jews in Jerusalem first and then go to the ends of the earth. Paul says to Christians that it is his heart’s desire that the Jews be saved.Christianity is salvation by grace. Those who are recipients of grace are not to persecute those who reject grace, but there is declarative warning out of concern for their spiritual welfare. Bottom line, there is no Scriptural warrant for a Christian to persecute a Jew, yet there is Scriptural warrant for them to do good to Jews, as many have in Christian history.
The heart of Harris’ book is his frustration with the lack of evidence for faith; this certainty without evidence he calls “dehumanizing.”He repeats this over and over. He says people of faith refuse to acknowledge the obvious; that the problem in the world is people believe the Creator of the universe has written a book.
His words have definite irony because the Christian faith says that the answer to the problem of the world is that the Creator has inspired the writing of a book and that there is plain evidence that this is so. In fact the Christian Scriptures say the problem with man is he will not concede what is obvious; that God has revealed himself in the Scriptures. I will not comment on Harris’ end note of “144 contradictions” in the Bible. Others have made better arguments than Harris about this and these arguments have been addressed in many books. To be fair, Harris does not even wish to enter into this; he thinks it absurd to consider it anyway. He says the Bible is a “book showing neither unity of style nor internal consistency.”
He ridicules prophesy fulfillment without understanding it or seeing how it helps show the internal consistency of the Scripture. He sees the miracles Jesus did as mere “spectacles,” with no evidence. Yet the miracles Jesus did were not only written about in the Old Testament, they were a fulfillment of Old Testament history.
For example, in the Old Testament the Israelites were in the desert without food. They were going to die unless they were miraculously provided for and God did so by sending manna from heaven. In the New Testament,when Jesus is teaching a crowd in the desert, they have no food and he miraculous provides for them in the feeding of the 5000. He could have just sent them home, but he does the miracle and announces that he is the “Bread ofLife.” Obviously the Bible is saying he is the same God as was in the wilderness with the Israelites. Everything Jesus does was foreshadowed and written about in the Old Testament. In fact, the history was ordered in anticipation of Christ.
The Apostle Paul asserts that the resurrection of Christ was witnessed by people who were still alive when he was writing. Now, I understand how Harris takes statements like this. But the apostle says two things especially to believers. First, Christ's death and resurrection was according to the Scriptures, that is, it is consistent with the whole Old Testament, and secondly it is a historical fact. He goes on to say if you don’t believe those things, then eat, and drink like the rest of the world for tomorrow we die.
The Christian assertion is that Harris is the one who refuses to concede what is obvious. It isn’t his reason that keeps him from God, it is his heart. He, like Ahab, with rage pursues the white whale with harpoon after harpoon, yet is consumed with his own vanity and fury in the futile attempt to rid himself of what is his superior. It is only one who knows of reconciliation with the transcendent God who can admire his Word amidst all the vanities of men. Harris, like everybody else, has his own religion. He assertsthat the evidence says his is right. The Bible asserts that it has given evidence that it is of God.
Last edited:
Sorry about the lack of paragraphs and such on the above post, I posted it from somewhere else and it didn't make the transition in the same form
Tidewatcher
I must admit that I have not completed my half of the bargain. I've bought the book, got 40-50 pages in and just keep stalling out. I will keep my promise however and finish. I will also address your post separately when I get the time.
I must admit that I have not completed my half of the bargain. I've bought the book, got 40-50 pages in and just keep stalling out. I will keep my promise however and finish. I will also address your post separately when I get the time.
TideWatcher
I know nothing about the Harris book or Harris himself, so, I can't comment on that; but the issues you address are done so gently, accurately, concisely and kindly, i.e., in a Godly manner. Your understanding that "that it is not his reason that keeps him from God, it is his heart" is an accurate summary statement regarding these issues. Thank you.
I know nothing about the Harris book or Harris himself, so, I can't comment on that; but the issues you address are done so gently, accurately, concisely and kindly, i.e., in a Godly manner. Your understanding that "that it is not his reason that keeps him from God, it is his heart" is an accurate summary statement regarding these issues. Thank you.
Last edited:
Latest threads
-
SEC West Showdown Sends Alabama to Oxford to Meet with Ole Miss- Started by Diamond Tide
- Replies: 0
-
Davis II Named to Stopper of the Year Midseason Watch List
- Started by Diamond Tide
- Replies: 0
-
Eleven-Run Third Powers Alabama to 14-5 Win over Samford
- Started by Diamond Tide
- Replies: 0
-
Maybe aTm's Pockets Aren't So Bottomless After All -- Layoffs In The Athletic Department
- Started by 4Q Basket Case
- Replies: 5
-
Time to un-vacate 2005-2007 on field victories and un-forfeit the 1993 season?
- Started by CmdrThor
- Replies: 20
-