Link: Trent's gone per Scout

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TideFan in AU

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Ok stick with those facts and we can have a logical debate, but bring Namath, Palmer, Leroy, and gimlet doesn't help your argument. Because you are talking about different times in the nfl with different ways teams were built. You also bring into the argument by referencing Jordan, gilmer, and Namath a era in which there wasn't an extreme talent gap between nfl and college football. It wasn't until about Super Bowl 8 that the nfl started being the best of the best.

If you want to reference Trent's high school/ college careers and first year in the nfl that's a good argument that we can have. But again you will have to explain the drop off and the fact that a back that was drafted 100 places after him was more effective in 5 games than Trent who started 14 plus.

My point about the "novel" is that just because it's longer doesn't mean that it makes a concrete argument full of relevant evidence.
I thought the reference to Gilmer, Bennett, and Namath was just to illustrate of all the great players we've had through the years only those guys were picked higher than Trent. I saw nothing that indicated him thinking or saying that Trent should be good just because those guys were. Trent was going to be a 1st round pick even if it wasn't Cleveland. Nobody thought Trent was going to bust like he did, including highly paid NFL execs, scouts, etc.
 

81usaf92

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I thought the reference to Gilmer, Bennett, and Namath was just to illustrate of all the great players we've had through the years only those guys were picked higher than Trent. I saw nothing that indicated him thinking or saying that Trent should be good just because those guys were. Trent was going to be a 1st round pick even if it wasn't Cleveland. Nobody thought Trent was going to bust like he did, including highly paid NFL execs, scouts, etc.
The problem is what does that have to do with Trent. The whole topic has been why has Trent not panned out. If you want to reference our players taken higher then ok, but he made a long thread that had little to do with Trent's struggles and more to do with players that have and things haters have said about lacy. It would been great if he didn't respond to a conversation between him and me about Trent's vision and us having an elite team around him.

I think as a few people have said " he just hasn't panned out but I wish him well" is the best way going forward.
 

IH8Orange

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If you want to reference Trent's high school/ college careers and first year in the nfl that's a good argument that we can have. But again you will have to explain the drop off and the fact that a back that was drafted 100 places after him was more effective in 5 games than Trent who started 14 plus.
Here's my explanation: A coach in the NFL was handed a running back with an unconventional yet extremely effective running style, put him behind an offensive line that couldn't block my 90-lb aunt, and then when he didn't see the same results that he saw in film at Alabama, he decided that the unconventional form was the problem and decided to fix that. He listened to a bunch of people who think that anything that doesn't conform to the preset notions of correct mechanics is doomed to fail and will disproportionately incur injury and started trying to change the mechanics of a guy who had been EXTREMELY successful and who, considering the amount of contact that he was subjected to, did not have an inordinately major history of injury. After correcting his mechanics, he wasn't the same back that he was before.

I don't know if a coach at Indy or Oakland told him to forget what the coach at Cleveland said and "just run naturally", but I doubt it because all the coaches probably listen to the same "authorities" on mechanics and it may be that if he'd gone anywhere and wasn't an instant success (regardless of how lousy his supporting cast might be), the coach would make the assumption that the problem was his mechanics and like Rush (in the song "Subdivisions") said, "conform or be cast out". If everyone was constructed EXACTLY the same, then I could understand this thinking, but some guys are just born with a gift and I've seen too many times that their gift was destroyed by convention.

I had a great uncle that had some heart valve "abnormality" that the "authorities" on cardiology said would kill him before 60. He outlived everyone of those authorities and kept ticking to age 85+ and it wasn't his heart that gave out on him, but cancer in another place. His son has the same "congenital abnormality" and at 60-something will absolutely tire out most people on a hunting expedition and doesn't seem to ever get winded. Maybe they don't have abnormalities, but instead an evolutionary step in heart design. Maybe Trent was the evolution of the running back, but since his mechanics were different, they had to be considered an "abnormality" and that has a bad connotation in a world of convention.
 

B1GTide

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If it was easy to figure out who was going to do well in the NFL then there would be no NFL busts. Not only is it hard - it is impossible (especially for skill position players). There are too many things that change, especially if you are a high draft choice.

You work for more than a decade toward a goal. You achieve that goal and get paid so much money that the world that you find yourself in looks nothing like the world that you walked through the day before. Few come through that kind of thing unchanged. And this doesn't even begin to address the differences in the game at a physical level.

Trent was a GREAT college RB. He got PAID and fulfilled his dream of playing in the NFL. Turns out that he just isn't going to pan out in the NFL (for whatever reason - doesn't really matter). Time for him to decide where his life goes from here.
 

CrimsonForce

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Looks like Trent is getting another workout with the Saints. I'm kind of surprised they are working him out. Maybe Mark put in a good word for him. It may do Trent some good to be on the same team as Mark. Maybe Mark can help him out..
 

gamersfuel

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with all the injuries yesterday he may get lucky. The Steelers, Bears and 49's had injuires yesterday at the RB position. If he cant make the 49'rs squad, he should just try a different profession at this point.
 

Sabanizer

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I have never seen a top 10 pick in the NFL, especially with multiple teams, not given a chance to succeed. Explaining away his failure in the NFL with stats, the teams and other bias, is easily trumped if you just watch his film. He would have huge holes and run the other way, or skip around while holes closed. That it was a conspiracy against him or lack of opportunity resembles those that believe the twin towers was a missile! Look with your your eyes! Go tell Terrell Davis about top 10 picks not given opportunities and he will laugh in your face as a 6th rounder that had to prove himself by nearly decapitate someone on special teams in a preseason game before he even got a look at RB, and goes on to rush for 2000 yards in a season.

That said. Trent is still young, and I will always love him for what he did at Bama, to heck with the NFL. But if he wants to succeed, he will get other opportunities. He could easily find a pro bono tutor that could access his film and train him in time for next season. There is a reason why he was picked so high and a reason why he did not adapt to the NFL, he is young enough to play another 7 years at his peak, and unless he is satisfied that his career is over, this is not the end of the road for Trent.

But that Trent was given a bum rap is laughable. Throw out the stats and look with your eyes at his film.
 

derek4tide

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Trent is Trent's biggest problem. It is sad to watch, but has happened to gifted players in the League beofre him. Trent gave up and that is a truly sad thing to watch.
 

IH8Orange

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Explaining away his failure in the NFL with stats, the teams and other bias, is easily trumped if you just watch his film. He would have huge holes and run the other way, or skip around while holes closed. That it was a conspiracy against him or lack of opportunity resembles those that believe the twin towers was a missile! Look with your your eyes!
Actually the twin towers were two 110-story skyscrapers built in lower Manhattan between 1968 and 1973. They were innovative in that their design allowed the structural load to be shared by a matrix of internal reinforced concrete columns and the vertical steel exterior columns. This allowed extraordinarily open space on each floor, only interrupted occasionally by one of the relatively thin interior columns. A missile is a projectile, specifically one that carries its own propulsion mechanism. By general definition, commercial aircraft are missiles. They aren't the infrared tracking, radar guided, or GPS targeted unmanned rockets that we typically denotate with the term missiles, but they were manned, self-propelled missiles that did a lot of damage.

Now that your fluff man (the usual term is straw man, but this one seemed to be more the consistency of the lint that you dig out of your pockets after washing) has fallen down, I present not only what I saw with my eyes for 3 years at Alabama, but what those who really count saw with theirs:

From http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/trent-richardson?id=2533032
He is a heady and instinctual player who is patient enough to wait for blocks to develop within the scheme and quick enough to change course and cut backfield to daylight.
From http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2012trichardson.php#glSuR3PZrt8VOs9J.99
Strengths:
Ideal build and size
Quickness to the hole
Vision
From http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-new...sns-no-5-prospect-alabama-rb-trent-richardson
He attacks the hole, has an explosive burst through it and has uncommon strength and power on contact. He has consistently shown the ability to keep his feet against hard hits and runs through grab tackles to gain yards after contact.
...
He has outstanding quickness, balance and lateral agility to make tacklers miss. Few backs possess this ability.
...
Richardson is the best back I have ever evaluated
...
He has been compared with Adrian Peterson because of how high Peterson was drafted, but we believe Richardson is a better prospect than Peterson.
From http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/...o-3-browns-select-trent-richardson-rb-alabama
Strengths: Interior running, instincts and vision, productivity
...
He is a powerful runner who knows how to find holes in the middle of the line and churn out yardage.
From http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...no-consensus-on-trent-richardsons-forty-time/
Working in Richardson’s favor is the fact that (most) teams don’t make draft choices based strictly on forty times. They watch the game tape, and Richardson’s is very, very good.
I watched with my eyes for 3 years at Alabama. Pro Scouts watched 3 years of game tape. General Managers watched 3 years of game tape. And everyone lauds Trent Richardson's agility, vision, and acceleration into holes, which are three qualities deemed most important in the success of an NFL running back today. Those qualities didn't just disappear overnight.

Some say that Richardson's rookie stats weren't good, but this article explains why the stats are misleading and that he had a fine rookie season: http://www.footballperspective.com/why-trent-richardsons-3-6-ypc-average-does-not-matter/

I've already shown the statistics that show that Cleveland's offensive effectiveness increased significantly in the 2012 season and then it dropped in the 2013 season. Really the only variable between the two seasons is Trent Richardson.

Previous posts have made it clear that several coaches made statements that they believed that he wouldn't survive long with his running style and that allegedly even his coaches at Cleveland were attempting to change his style. Assuming that they were unable to get him to change his style in his first season and it seems that he was effective in his first season, if you look at team stats and understand why they brought him there in the first place -- to establish some ground threat to make their opponents' defenses have to account for him, his running style doesn't seem to have been a huge liability. I can't account for his ineffectiveness after that first season, but something changed that appears to have affected his natural instincts. The term "game slowing down" is used to describe the transition when a player isn't having to think about techniques, position, and schemes and is instead using more of his mental facilities for actually analyzing what is happening right now on the field. Missing wide open holes was something that he didn't do at Alabama and he really didn't have much opportunity to find holes in that first year in Cleveland, not to mention that he was trying to learn the playbook and other things. If you add "change the way you run" to the mixture of things an athlete is having to learn, especially if his body may be designed specifically for a certain running style, I can see how his instincts are suddenly thrown awry and he's making mistakes that are due to misappropriation of concentration and attention and the game has suddenly "sped up" for him.

I also don't understand this entire "conspiracy" thing. I don't think that anyone has said that the NFL "conspired" to destroy Trent Richardson. Conspiracy requires planning and cooperation between parties and I don't think the NFL is capable of that much organization. I blamed "convention" and "generalization", as in "this is how we've always done it", "all people are alike", "it worked for so-and-so, so you need to do it that way", "there is no standard deviation in the mechanics of the human body, we are all alike so we should all move in exactly the same way", "if that guy got injured running like that then it is a certainty that anyone else that runs like that will also be injured".

I effectively played tennis, softball, and basketball for years and studied Tang Soo Do for a year with a torn ACL. The conventional wisdom says that isn't possible. However, I have incredibly developed legs ( a former Alabama defensive lineman accused me of taking roids because of the muscular structure of my legs) and my orthopedist told me that I couldn't have a torn ACL and be participating in these activities, so he said it must have been a partial tear. I went over 10 years before I tore my patellar tendon and then had to have surgery. After the surgery, the orthopedist told me that he couldn't find much of my ACL because it HAD completely torn and apparently emaciated away in those 10 years. We don't all move the same, we aren't all made the same, and some people have physical gifts because of their unique body structure. I think that the only problem with Trent Richardson was that he was gifted with a special running style and it didn't correlate with the statistical mean that sports physicians and trainers read in their journals and published studies.

Physicians are omniscient (just ask one) because they studied for 8 years, wear immaculately clean white smocks that often make their visages imperceptible (like Christ during his Transfiguration), and typically have a staff of 20 that perform the menial human activities that are required before you get your 5 minutes of Evidence-Based Practice (the 20 questions that are ordered most efficiently for their time that funnel them to the 70% probability branch of the ICD-10 classification ontology) and subsequent diagnosis, shot in the rump, and prescriptions shoved into your pocket as they whisk you out the exit. Just don't ask them if they went to pre-med after they were weeded out of the Engineering College cause that'll get you another shot in the rump.

Here's a conspiracy for you: The U.S. Military took TRich's mojo to create elite autonomous cyborg warriors at Area 51.
 

81usaf92

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Apr 26, 2008
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Actually the twin towers were two 110-story skyscrapers built in lower Manhattan between 1968 and 1973. They were innovative in that their design allowed the structural load to be shared by a matrix of internal reinforced concrete columns and the vertical steel exterior columns. This allowed extraordinarily open space on each floor, only interrupted occasionally by one of the relatively thin interior columns. A missile is a projectile, specifically one that carries its own propulsion mechanism. By general definition, commercial aircraft are missiles. They aren't the infrared tracking, radar guided, or GPS targeted unmanned rockets that we typically denotate with the term missiles, but they were manned, self-propelled missiles that did a lot of damage.

Now that your fluff man (the usual term is straw man, but this one seemed to be more the consistency of the lint that you dig out of your pockets after washing) has fallen down, I present not only what I saw with my eyes for 3 years at Alabama, but what those who really count saw with theirs:

From http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/trent-richardson?id=2533032


From http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2012trichardson.php#glSuR3PZrt8VOs9J.99


From http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-new...sns-no-5-prospect-alabama-rb-trent-richardson


From http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/...o-3-browns-select-trent-richardson-rb-alabama


From http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...no-consensus-on-trent-richardsons-forty-time/


I watched with my eyes for 3 years at Alabama. Pro Scouts watched 3 years of game tape. General Managers watched 3 years of game tape. And everyone lauds Trent Richardson's agility, vision, and acceleration into holes, which are three qualities deemed most important in the success of an NFL running back today. Those qualities didn't just disappear overnight.

Some say that Richardson's rookie stats weren't good, but this article explains why the stats are misleading and that he had a fine rookie season: http://www.footballperspective.com/why-trent-richardsons-3-6-ypc-average-does-not-matter/

I've already shown the statistics that show that Cleveland's offensive effectiveness increased significantly in the 2012 season and then it dropped in the 2013 season. Really the only variable between the two seasons is Trent Richardson.

Previous posts have made it clear that several coaches made statements that they believed that he wouldn't survive long with his running style and that allegedly even his coaches at Cleveland were attempting to change his style. Assuming that they were unable to get him to change his style in his first season and it seems that he was effective in his first season, if you look at team stats and understand why they brought him there in the first place -- to establish some ground threat to make their opponents' defenses have to account for him, his running style doesn't seem to have been a huge liability. I can't account for his ineffectiveness after that first season, but something changed that appears to have affected his natural instincts. The term "game slowing down" is used to describe the transition when a player isn't having to think about techniques, position, and schemes and is instead using more of his mental facilities for actually analyzing what is happening right now on the field. Missing wide open holes was something that he didn't do at Alabama and he really didn't have much opportunity to find holes in that first year in Cleveland, not to mention that he was trying to learn the playbook and other things. If you add "change the way you run" to the mixture of things an athlete is having to learn, especially if his body may be designed specifically for a certain running style, I can see how his instincts are suddenly thrown awry and he's making mistakes that are due to misappropriation of concentration and attention and the game has suddenly "sped up" for him.

I also don't understand this entire "conspiracy" thing. I don't think that anyone has said that the NFL "conspired" to destroy Trent Richardson. Conspiracy requires planning and cooperation between parties and I don't think the NFL is capable of that much organization. I blamed "convention" and "generalization", as in "this is how we've always done it", "all people are alike", "it worked for so-and-so, so you need to do it that way", "there is no standard deviation in the mechanics of the human body, we are all alike so we should all move in exactly the same way", "if that guy got injured running like that then it is a certainty that anyone else that runs like that will also be injured".

I effectively played tennis, softball, and basketball for years and studied Tang Soo Do for a year with a torn ACL. The conventional wisdom says that isn't possible. However, I have incredibly developed legs ( a former Alabama defensive lineman accused me of taking roids because of the muscular structure of my legs) and my orthopedist told me that I couldn't have a torn ACL and be participating in these activities, so he said it must have been a partial tear. I went over 10 years before I tore my patellar tendon and then had to have surgery. After the surgery, the orthopedist told me that he couldn't find much of my ACL because it HAD completely torn and apparently emaciated away in those 10 years. We don't all move the same, we aren't all made the same, and some people have physical gifts because of their unique body structure. I think that the only problem with Trent Richardson was that he was gifted with a special running style and it didn't correlate with the statistical mean that sports physicians and trainers read in their journals and published studies.

Physicians are omniscient (just ask one) because they studied for 8 years, wear immaculately clean white smocks that often make their visages imperceptible (like Christ during his Transfiguration), and typically have a staff of 20 that perform the menial human activities that are required before you get your 5 minutes of Evidence-Based Practice (the 20 questions that are ordered most efficiently for their time that funnel them to the 70% probability branch of the ICD-10 classification ontology) and subsequent diagnosis, shot in the rump, and prescriptions shoved into your pocket as they whisk you out the exit. Just don't ask them if they went to pre-med after they were weeded out of the Engineering College cause that'll get you another shot in the rump.

Here's a conspiracy for you: The U.S. Military took TRich's mojo to create elite autonomous cyborg warriors at Area 51.
Wow I didn't know Glenn beck was a bama fan.*** blue***

Ok seriously, the only relevant stuff in your conspiracy Mumbo jumbo that makes any logical sense is the scout reports pre draft, but not really. Scouts have gotten things wrong a lot. Tom Brady was mr 199, Terrell Davis was a 6th rounder, and Shannon sharpe was a 7th rounder. So if it is possible to get great players wrong then it is very possible to get mediocre players wrong too(in terms of the nfl) So scouts reports and pre draft analysis is not really a good indicator of how good or bad a player is.
 
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Sabanizer

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Dec 6, 2000
2,868
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Wow I didn't know Glenn beck was a bama fan.*** blue***

Ok seriously, the only relevant stuff in your conspiracy Mumbo jumbo that makes any logical sense is the scout reports pre draft, but not really. Scouts have gotten things wrong a lot. Tom Brady was mr 199, Terrell Davis was a 6th rounder, and Shannon sharpe was a 7th rounder. So if it is possible to get great players wrong then it is very possible to get mediocre players wrong too(in terms of the nfl) So scouts reports and pre draft analysis is not really a good indicator of how good or bad a player is.
I think some of the early scouting of Bama players tended towards exaggerating our players skills at the benefit of the system and being put in winning situations by sound coaching. It hurt us with so many players leaving early and there was that "buzz" of our players underachieving, but this was soon rectified and balanced out, and our players then meeting and exceeding expectations. I believe Eddie Lacy was caught in the cross hairs and would have been a 1st rounder if not for Mark (at the time) and Trent's being perceived underachieves. I was miffed that scouts could not see that he was better than both in the last half of his Jr years, which was after the fusion surgery. But in the end, our players are scouted better, and we are getting to keep some for another year when they might have gone a year earlier in coach Saban's earlier years. It nearly got out of hand.

To IH8Orange: My son is an Engineer. I will forward post, and get back to you :). I just use the eye test and my knowledge from watching football every Sunday for 40+ years. I do regret opening up the conspiracy theory box! But as a computer tech, if I try and can't install software from a DVD on three different computer hard drives with three different DVD players, it crashes, it's the DVD 99.9% of the time. You are a great poster and I have always enjoyed your contributions to the forum over the years, that is a fact.:)
 
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IH8Orange

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But as a computer tech, if I try and can't install software from a DVD on three different computer hard drives with three different DVD players, it crashes, it's the DVD 99.9% of the time.
Maybe the DVD is a Blue-Ray and you are trying to read it with standard DVD players. In that case, you can state that it is a fact that your DVD will NEVER work with any of your DVD players. So you throw away the DVD and its superior performance because it isn't performing as expected within your particular context.
 

Skeeterpop

Hall of Fame
Jul 18, 2008
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Can this thread please be locked?? It serves no purpose and the title has absolutely nothing to do with the last 20 pages.

Please lock this one. If something new comes out about Trent, let the OP start a new thread.

Thanks for your consideration.
 

IH8Orange

Hall of Fame
Aug 14, 2000
7,017
31
0
Trussville, AL, USA
Can this thread please be locked?? It serves no purpose and the title has absolutely nothing to do with the last 20 pages.

Please lock this one. If something new comes out about Trent, let the OP start a new thread.

Thanks for your consideration.
I only see 19 pages, but pagesize is configurable I suppose.
 

IH8Orange

Hall of Fame
Aug 14, 2000
7,017
31
0
Trussville, AL, USA
Wow I didn't know Glenn beck was a bama fan.*** blue***

Ok seriously, the only relevant stuff in your conspiracy Mumbo jumbo that makes any logical sense is the scout reports pre draft, but not really. Scouts have gotten things wrong a lot. Tom Brady was mr 199, Terrell Davis was a 6th rounder, and Shannon sharpe was a 7th rounder. So if it is possible to get great players wrong then it is very possible to get mediocre players wrong too(in terms of the nfl) So scouts reports and pre draft analysis is not really a good indicator of how good or bad a player is.
I'm still trying to figure out where I stated that there was any conspiracy. Today "conspiracy" is one of those words used against someone unjustifiably just because it has acquired a negative connotation, most people will automatically dismiss anything considered a "conspiracy" and apparently you can't retort with respectable rhetoric. You just use the tired ol' "conspiracy theory" tag to attach disrepute to arguments which for which you don't "have the chest" ( $0.05 to Les Miles) to handle.
 
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