News Article: Kentucky Clerk Is Due In Federal Court For Contempt Hearing

Jon

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Had to travel yesterday and missed some interesting replies, my apologies

as I keep saying I don't want to derail this thread and to that end I've decided not to respond for a change. If anyone wants to try and explain the christianity that y'all claim I don't understand I'd welcome a new thread for just that but I won't start it.
 

TIDE-HSV

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I'll have to be placed in the camp which feels a resignation is in order. The situation, which is a constant one, and which I feel is directly analogous is that of doctors who won't perform abortions because of religious beliefs. The difference is that she's a public servant under oath. That places one in tight position. For me personally, you enforce the law or you resign, and that's no moral copout. Had I been the judge in the Dred Scott case, I would have resigned. That leaves it up to your replacement, which must make his/her on decision...
 

Tidewater

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Yeah, I think most of us would tell ourselves we'd violate the law, stand on our principles, and not send back the slave. But would we? Would it be right to do so? That was the law. The Supreme Court had spoken. Obviously, most people don't think that gay marriage is as big a deal as slavery--and of course it's not--but it is a matter of degrees at that point. If you would free the slave, then you are essentially acknowledging that there are times when the "it's the law and she should do her job whether she agrees or not" isn't absolute. What you are really saying is "it's the law and she should do her job unless it's really important." And to me, disagreeing with her about whether or not it's really important is a much weaker position than the "rule of law" one.

Obviously, if you are consistent like TW, this is not a hard question.
I would not really like it, but it is, or was, the law. If Dred Scott had brought his case while in a free state, he might have had a better argument. Waiting until he got back to Missouri was a losing argument.
At the same time, I would say to the residents of those states who did not like fulfilling their constitutional obligation to return fugitives from labor that they could always leave the Union. Then escaped slaves arriving in their state would be like slaves arriving in Canada: not liable to rendition.
Northern states wanted to have their constitutional cake and eat it too. They liked all the benefits of being members of the Union, but they did not like the obligations, which were a condition upon which the Union had been based in the first place. If they had left the Union, they would have been surrendering the benefits of Union, and would have gotten the freedom to not return fugitives from labor. Jefferson Davis noted this argument in his farewell speech to the Senate in 1861: membership in the Union comes with benefits and costs. Independence from it also comes with benefits and costs.
In this Kentucky case, while I believe the entire Federal judiciary s guilty of an egregious violation of its collective oath to support the Constitution, it has ruled and the people of the United States collectively and individually, have two options: leave the Union, or enforce the law (while, if you are really upset about this, trying to correct the judiciary's gross error through statute, amendment or impeachment).
 

tide power fan

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Religious belief runs deep, the covenanter's come to mind, they took death over changing their minds in what they believed in.
 

92tide

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If you'd care to expound, go ahead - otherwise join the of a knowingly horrible supreme court case and whether or not you would ssidelines.
its a very poor conflation. it is implying that the "stand" that she is taking is somehow the equivalent of someone taking a stand against a supreme court decision that stated that certain people were not citizens of this country because of the color of their skin. i guess on some level, it is technically "correct" in that a stand is being taken against a "bad" law that one doesn't agree with, but that notion is pedantic at best.

"religious liberty" is equivalent to slavery/civil rights is an argument that has been trotted out a lot since the obergefell decision, especially in the form of "obergfell is just like the dred scott case", and the underlying premise [that somehow christians are being treated poorly by the government and society just like blacks were] was getting a fair amount of play in the religious persecution circuit before that.

i hope that is enough expounding for you.

i will retire the sidelines of this discussion anyway, because i actually find the rending of garments masquerading as clever legal argumentation to be hilarious.
 

crimsonaudio

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its a very poor conflation.
Thanks.

I actually think the point of his post (he can correct me if I'm wrong) is to get people thinking of the reality of personal morality vs the law, and if that's his intention, it's a good point. While I believe she needs to do her job or resign, if we pursue the thought exercise it makes it clear it's not nearly the black and white issue that many are making it.

Stepping back and talking more generally about personal morality vs the law, where is the line? I suppose that will vary with everyone.
 

Jon

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I'd love to know how Huckabee, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz and the other GOP candidates who have been "standing with Kim Davis" and otherwise supporting her would react to a Jainist Sheriff refusing to issue Concealed Cary permits. Something tells me they'd have a bit of a problem with those sincerely held religious beliefs
 

Tidewater

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i will retire the sidelines of this discussion anyway, because i actually find the rending of garments masquerading as clever legal argumentation to be hilarious.
Almost as hilarious as this genius piece of reasoning by a Federal judge in Virginia:
Our Constitution declares that "all men" are created equal.
It only took a few hours for her clerks to realize that the phrase in question comes from not the Constitution, but the Declaration of Independence, which has all the constitutional standing of a piece of pickled herring.

She entered the case with her mind made up, and scoured (or had her clerks scour) whatever might support the decision she had already made before the case ever started. And she/they were not even very good at it, apparently.
The law can be hanged. She was going to enforce her personal opinion, regardless of circumstances.
 

81usaf92

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I'd love to know how Huckabee, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz and the other GOP candidates who have been "standing with Kim Davis" and otherwise supporting her would react to a Jainist Sheriff refusing to issue Concealed Cary permits. Something tells me they'd have a bit of a problem with those sincerely held religious beliefs
Cary? Who is Cary and why is she, or he, concealed.
 

Tidewater

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I'd love to know how Huckabee, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz and the other GOP candidates who have been "standing with Kim Davis" and otherwise supporting her would react to a Jainist Sheriff refusing to issue Concealed Cary permits. Something tells me they'd have a bit of a problem with those sincerely held religious beliefs
I don't know what they would say, but I would say the same thing: Dura lex, sed lex, "Take the king's coin, do the king's bidding."
 

Bamaro

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So if you were a judge, post Dredd Scott, asked to return a slave to the South, would you A) do it because that's your job and what the law requires B) make a point of how you disagree, knowing that the person who will take your place would send them back, or C) hold your ground no matter what?

If you really believe that what you are doing is just, stepping aside so someone else can do it to keep your conscience clean is just as bad. There's a guy who washed his hands of a controversy in Christian history, and he's not too fondly remembered, despite his initial stand.
It took us a little while to get the slavery issue right, we finally did.
It took us a little while longer to get the gay issue right, we finally did.
 

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