VW in trouble...

dayhiker · Sep 22, 2015

crimsonaudio said:
I believe I read there already is one.

The repercussions could be massive. Imagine VW having to buy back automobiles that were sold, in part, due to emissions and efficiency they knowingly lied about?

Also, note to self, consider buying VW stock next week. :biggrin:

THe stock thing crossed my mind too.

tidegrandpa · Sep 22, 2015

Too bad we make rules that companies have to cheat to make your car run as good as they build it.

dayhiker · Sep 22, 2015

VOW3 stock symbol was 218 in late June and is trading at 109 now.

Bamaro · Sep 22, 2015

tidegrandpa said:
Too bad we make rules that companies have to cheat to make your car run as good as they build it.

No, they cheat because its easier and a little cheaper than building it to proper standards in the first place. The rules were for the greater good, the company chose to cheat to gain an unfair advantage over other companies who easily followed the rules.
VW must of had someone from the Patriots consulting for them.:wink:

tidegrandpa · Sep 22, 2015

Bamaro said:
No, they cheat because its easier and a little cheaper than building it to proper standards in the first place. The rules were for the greater good, the company chose to cheat to gain an unfair advantage over other companies who easily followed the rules.
VW must of had someone from the Patriots consulting for them.:wink:

Ah, it's just my libertarian streak coming out.

crimsonaudio · Sep 22, 2015

tidegrandpa said:
Ah, it's just my libertarian streak coming out.

I'm there with you, generally speaking, but companies have proved over and over again that without these regulations, they (generally speaking0 don't care about the environment. Heck, even WITH the regulations, some (like VW) try to cheat, purposely harming the environment simply to pad their pocketbooks.

Jon · Sep 22, 2015

Bamaro said:
No, they cheat because its easier and a little cheaper than building it to proper standards in the first place. The rules were for the greater good, the company chose to cheat to gain an unfair advantage over other companies who easily followed the rules.
VW must of had someone from the Patriots consulting for them.:wink:

the problem of course is the politics behind all of this screwing everything up as well. Because of the influence of the oil companies, the US auto manufacturers, the epa and dozens of other right and left groups all of this stuff ends up a bit of a joke.

There was a diesel engine available all over the world that gets 80+ MPG but wasn't available in the US because it lets a few more particles into the air than the epa allows per gallon. What the epa rules don't take into account, for political reasons only as near as anyone can tell, is that because it got so much better mileage than available US diesels that it actually produced less particles per year than what the EPA see's as a "cleaner" engine. It's stuff like this that make the rules seem arbitrary so I can understand the desire of these companies to cheat

NationalTitles18 · Sep 22, 2015

Jon said:
the problem of course is the politics behind all of this screwing everything up as well. Because of the influence of the oil companies, the US auto manufacturers, the epa and dozens of other right and left groups all of this stuff ends up a bit of a joke.

There was a diesel engine available all over the world that gets 80+ MPG but wasn't available in the US because it lets a few more particles into the air than the epa allows per gallon. What the epa rules don't take into account, for political reasons only as near as anyone can tell, is that because it got so much better mileage than available US diesels that it actually produced less particles per year than what the EPA see's as a "cleaner" engine. It's stuff like this that make the rules seem arbitrary so I can understand the desire of these companies to cheat

Bingo! The rule on this particular matter do not account for per mile driven, only for per gallon, and so the end result mau actually be MORE emissions instead of less. It is bureaucratic stupidity at its finest.

2003TIDE · Sep 22, 2015

Jon said:
The computer checks for 2 wheels moving while 2 are stopped, like on a Dyno which is how most states check emissions.

So is that just for the initial EPA test? They don't dyno where I get my emissions tested.

crimsonaudio · Sep 22, 2015

Jon said:
There was a diesel engine available all over the world that gets 80+ MPG but wasn't available in the US because it lets a few more particles into the air than the epa allows per gallon. What the epa rules don't take into account, for political reasons only as near as anyone can tell, is that because it got so much better mileage than available US diesels that it actually produced less particles per year than what the EPA see's as a "cleaner" engine. It's stuff like this that make the rules seem arbitrary so I can understand the desire of these companies to cheat

Yup - it's why diesel vehicles dominate the landscape in Europe while being relatively rare over here.

NationalTitles18 · Sep 22, 2015

2003TIDE said:
So is that just for the initial EPA test? They don't dyno where I get my emissions tested.

No. The software "looks" for a number of parameters that indicate testing is likely to be taking place and then implements changes whereby the car meets regs. Then when it no longer "senses" it is being tested it reverts back to the scheme that delivers higher fuel efficiency and power, thereby making the customer happier and despite running afoul of the rules may be better for the environment in the end. While we address VW's deception the government stupidity must also be addressed.

Jon · Sep 22, 2015

2003TIDE said:
So is that just for the initial EPA test? They don't dyno where I get my emissions tested.

yeah, no dyno here either. I think this is where CBI's "door open" comment comes in. Software detects running with the door open and the OBDII port active

though it makes me wonder what happens if you are running one of these http://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products-Bluetooth-diagnostics-Android/dp/B005NLQAHS

tidegrandpa · Sep 22, 2015

Jon said:
yeah, no dyno here either. I think this is where CBI's "door open" comment comes in. Software detects running with the door open and the OBDII port active

though it makes me wonder what happens if you are running one of these http://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products-Bluetooth-diagnostics-

Android/dp/B005NLQAHS

Also, VW,AUDI never released aftermarket OBDII interfaces within 3 years of model years to repair shops other than their dealers. GM, FORD, CHRYSLER were only about a 6-9 month delay. Diagnostic codes could only pulled pulled by the VW dealers.

92tide · Sep 22, 2015

crimsonaudio said:
I believe I read there already is one.

The repercussions could be massive. Imagine VW having to buy back automobiles that were sold, in part, due to emissions and efficiency they knowingly lied about?

Also, note to self, consider buying VW stock next week. :biggrin:

i think i may go out and buy some bling in anticipation

92tide · Sep 22, 2015

2003TIDE said:
So is that just for the initial EPA test? They don't dyno where I get my emissions tested.

its interesting for me to see what happens as georgia doesn't even require emissions for diesel vehicles.

Tide1986 · Sep 22, 2015

Bamaro said:
No, they cheat because its easier and a little cheaper than building it to proper standards in the first place. The rules were for the greater good, the company chose to cheat to gain an unfair advantage over other companies who easily followed the rules.
VW must of had someone from the Patriots consulting for them.:wink:

To meet emission standards in test mode, wouldn't all the necessary emission controls still need to be installed?

tidegrandpa · Sep 22, 2015

Tide1986 said:
To meet emission standards in test mode, wouldn't all the necessary emission controls still need to be installed?

Yes but the on board computer driven by the software can engage or disengage the hardware as needed.
After OBD II was created to control all functions, when you turn your headlights on, your not closing that circuit, you are instructing the on board computer to instruct the body control module to turn your lights on.

Tide1986 · Sep 22, 2015

tidegrandpa said:
Yes but the on board computer driven by the software can engage or disengage the hardware as needed.
After OBD II was created to control all functions, when you turn your headlights on, your not closing that circuit, you are instructing the on board computer to instruct the body control module to turn your lights on.

Then I'm not sure it's cheaper for the company to build as Bamaro stated. Academically speaking, it would be more expensive since VW would need to create more expansive software to turn off and on the emission controls.

tidegrandpa · Sep 22, 2015

Tide1986 said:
Then I'm not sure it's cheaper for the company to build as Bamaro stated. Academically speaking, it would be more expensive since VW would need to create more expansive software to turn off and on the emission controls.

You would think that but as these guy before me on the forum pointed out, it's the stupidity of the testing environment, i.e.static, only 2 tires moving, make it easy for the code writers to bypass.

TIDE-HSV · Sep 22, 2015

tidegrandpa said:
Also, VW,AUDI never released aftermarket OBDII interfaces within 3 years of model years to repair shops other than their dealers. GM, FORD, CHRYSLER were only about a 6-9 month delay. Diagnostic codes could only pulled pulled by the VW dealers.

Are you absolutely sure about that? I always make sure, when we buy a new vehicle, that I have a code reader for it, all the way back to to OBDI. We just donated a VW Passat a couple of years ago we'd had since 2003, and I could swear I had a OBDII reader for it almost immediately. I believe in knowing as much as the stealer. I've had two dealership shops, one Mercedes and one Dodge lie to me in instances which could have cost me and mine lives. Believe it or not, when I had a fairly new Dodge Caravan (fit the family situation and popular at the time), the cable from the lever to the transmission broke. Whereupon, I put it up against a wall, selected "Drive" and pulled on the broken off cable until I felt it work through the gears and engage in "Dr." I clamped it there right at the transmission with vise grips. I then drove all the way out to the dealer and they claimed the cable wasn't part of the "drive-train" warranty. Faced with suit, they caved. (I think they would have even caved before present day arbitration.) Same bunch made the same claim when a hub drive lug bolt broke off. Caved on that one too.

The worst though was the Mercedes. I kept having alternator problems - wearing out belts etc. Finally, I climbed under and saw that the fixing bolt on the mount was undersized; alternator body literally rattling around. When I confronted the mechanic, he confessed that the shop manager wouldn't let him order the proper sized bolt, $17.50 at the time, more now with inflation. When I confronted him, he tried exploding at me. When he got through, I told him I was preferring criminal charges and his attitude changed. That tactic might not be quite legal, but it worked. He had already caused me extreme difficulties, with the car going dead on I-59 at the Hammondville exit, stopped by local cops because my headlights were almost gone. A diesel, once started will run until out of fuel. However, the alternator couldn't recharge the battery. Around that time, I decided I needed to know as much as the dealer. I'd always worked on cars, but EC modules were new to me...

VW in trouble...

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