another school shooting tragedy, Umpqua Community College Oregon

NationalTitles18 · Oct 3, 2015

Jon said:
You think it would have helped here? I do

and of course I'd never advocate rounding anyone up, but a kid who gets put in special schools because he lashes out violently? I personally don't feel he should get access to firearms

and I'd like it if we could as a country provide for people with mental illness perhaps we can keep some of these people from snapping

I think you need to educated yourself.

AUDub · Oct 3, 2015

NationalTitles15 said:
I reiterate: the science is clear. Most studies support my argument. Those that do not do not show any law having an effect.

http://crimeresearch.org/2015/08/a-...mistake-filled-effort-to-discredit-john-lott/

Source the bolded claim, please.

And no, the science is not clear. Several other methodologically valid studies have contradicted the Lott paper.

NationalTitles18 · Oct 3, 2015

AUDub said:
Source the bolded claim, please.

And no, the science is not clear. Several other methodologically valid studies have contradicted the Lott paper.

And yet several others support his conclusions, but let's not make this about John Lott. Lott says he began his research thinking just the opposite of what his results told him. The subject is not Lott or even exclusively his research.

AUDub · Oct 3, 2015

NationalTitles15 said:
And yet several others support his conclusions

And several others do not. Therefore, the science is not "clear."

NationalTitles15 said:
...but let's not make this about John Lott. Lott says he began his research thinking just the opposite of what his results told him. The subject is not Lott or even exclusively his research.

Lott's work has been used to shape policy.

NationalTitles18 · Oct 3, 2015

AUDub said:
And several others do not. Therefore, the science is not "clear."

Lott's work has been used to shape policy.

The science is clear. Some scientist are not.

formersoldier71 · Oct 3, 2015

NationalTitles15 said:
Hell, why stop there? Why not just put them all in institutions where they should be.

Because having all the crazy people walking around free and trusting them to self-medicate is a much better idea.

NationalTitles18 · Oct 4, 2015

formersoldier71 said:
Because having all the crazy people walking around free and trusting them to self-medicate is a much better idea.

I'm going to say this and try to walk away. Kids with behavioral problems aren't necessarily crazy. There are plenty who go through a difficult time and with help get back on track. And many people - including probably half or more on here would have no gun rights if they had gotten caught doing half the stupid stuff they did as kids/young adults. People with autism are no more crazy than any other population. Each is unique, just like the rest of us. Autism is not a psychiatric illness. Never has been. Never will be. If you don't understand this then it shows your own ignorance. It appears though that arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand.

Bamaro · Oct 4, 2015

selmaborntidefan said:
Nobody disagrees with this basic point.

It's the next step where everything gets fuzzy.

I'm willing to bet every single person here has probably always agreed with that bottom line.

Not true at all. The paranoid gun nuts including NRA officials are worried the "libtards" are after their guns and registration is the roadmap to get there.. Thats the main reason nothing ever gets done. Even universal background checks are opposed.

BamaFlum · Oct 4, 2015

Bamaro said:
Not true at all. The paranoid gun nuts including NRA officials are worried the "libtards" are after their guns and registration is the roadmap to get there.. Thats the main reason nothing ever gets done. Even universal background checks are opposed.

Not that governments in the past have ever used registration to confiscate guns.

81usaf92 · Oct 4, 2015

Jon said:
How about a national database of mental disabilities that includes people on the Autism Spectrum or people that were required to be in special schools for behavioral issues? Make these people ineligible to purchase a firearm. This kid in Oregon would have failed on both

You do realize that is a cloudy argument because there are numerous people without diagnosed disabilities in those schools. For example, when integration happened in schools there was an alarming number of African American students suddenly enrolled in special education. It also doesn't always require a physician to enroll these individuals in schools.

Also most in most of these shootings, it's usually implied after the fact that they probably had mental illness. Look at Dylan klebold, the Littleton shooter, the uni bomber, Dennis rader, and many others. Mental illness diagnosis and gun control are not cut and dry as many people seem to think

AUDub · Oct 4, 2015

NationalTitles15 said:
The science is clear. Some scientist are not.

That makes no sense.

Jon · Oct 4, 2015

81usaf92 said:
You do realize that is a cloudy argument because there are numerous people without diagnosed disabilities in those schools. For example, when integration happened in schools there was an alarming number of African American students suddenly enrolled in special education. It also doesn't always require a physician to enroll these individuals in schools.

Also most in most of these shootings, it's usually implied after the fact that they probably had mental illness. Look at Dylan klebold, the Littleton shooter, the uni bomber, Dennis rader, and many others. Mental illness diagnosis and gun control are not cut and dry as many people seem to think

I was a little buzzed when I posted that last night so I'll pull it back. I do think it's worth having a conversation about. this country has pathetic mental health services and we clearly need to do something.

formersoldier71 · Oct 4, 2015

NationalTitles15 said:
I'm going to say this and try to walk away. Kids with behavioral problems aren't necessarily crazy. There are plenty who go through a difficult time and with help get back on track. And many people - including probably half or more on here would have no gun rights if they had gotten caught doing half the stupid stuff they did as kids/young adults. People with autism are no more crazy than any other population. Each is unique, just like the rest of us. Autism is not a psychiatric illness. Never has been. Never will be. If you don't understand this then it shows your own ignorance. It appears though that arrogance and ignorance go hand in hand.

Yeah, it's probably best that you walk away before you say something that I'm able to understand.

81usaf92 · Oct 4, 2015

Jon said:
I was a little buzzed when I posted that last night so I'll pull it back. I do think it's worth having a conversation about. this country has pathetic mental health services and we clearly need to do something.

I can agree to that point.

jthomas666 · Oct 4, 2015

Tide1986 said:
When gun control fanatics beat the drum for more controls after such an event using the horror of the event to stir up knee-jerk emotions, then yes, the criterion you referenced is really the only one that should be considered.

Why? Because it makes it so much easier to dismiss any and all suggestions? "WOULD IT HAVE STOPPED [INSERT SHOOTING DU JOUR]? NO? THEN SHUT UP."

How convenient.

Tide1986 · Oct 4, 2015

jthomas666 said:
Why? Because it makes it so much easier to dismiss any and all suggestions? "WOULD IT HAVE STOPPED [INSERT SHOOTING DU JOUR]? NO? THEN SHUT UP."

How convenient.

If the suggestions will have no impact on what horrifies people, then why take the placebo? Just so you can feel like you're doing something?

jthomas666 · Oct 4, 2015

Tide1986 said:
If the suggestions will have no impact on what horrifies people, then why take the placebo? Just so you can feel like you're doing something?

Please. It's only a placebo because of your reductive definition. If outrage over mass shooting gets people to take a look at gun laws and say--here's something that might help--whether it's new laws or better enforcement of existing laws or better screening for mental health problems--that's a step in the right direction.

Tide1986 · Oct 4, 2015

jthomas666 said:
Please. It's only a placebo because of your reductive definition. If outrage over mass shooting gets people to take a look at gun laws and say--here's something that might help--whether it's new laws or better enforcement of existing laws or better screening for mental health problems--that's a step in the right direction.

If you believe in freedom, no, none of those things are a step in the right direction at all.

BamaFlum · Oct 4, 2015

Tide1986 said:
If you believe in freedom, no, none of those things are a step in the right direction at all.

Just enforce existing gun laws; aren't there thousands?

Tide1986 · Oct 4, 2015

BamaFlum said:
Just enforce existing gun laws; aren't there thousands?

Unless you abuse our 4th Amendment rights by knocking down doors and forcibly confiscating all of the guns in the United States, the gun deaths that horrify some people will never end.

another school shooting tragedy, Umpqua Community College Oregon

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