State Flag Comes Down at Ole Miss

ValuJet · Oct 26, 2015

http://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2015/10/26/ole-miss-takes-down-mississippi-flag/74616708/

This could get interesting.

University of Mississippi campus police officers lowered and furled the state flag in a Lyceum Circle ceremony Monday morning. The flag will be preserved in the University Archives along with resolutions from students, faculty and staff calling for its removal.

The University of Mississippi student senate adopted a resolution asking administrators to remove the flag. The faculty Senate adopted a similar resolution.

Interim Chancellor Morris Stocks ordered the flag lowered and said it was being sent to the university's archives.

Two sections of the Mississippi Constitution Miss. Code Ann. § 3-3-15 and § 37-13-5 address the display of the state flag at public buildings and schools.

The flag of the State of Mississippi and the flag of the United States shall be displayed in close proximity to the school building at all times during the hours of daylight when the school is in session when the weather will permit without damage to the flag. It shall be the duty of the board of trustees of the school district to provide for the flags and their display.

cbi1972 · Oct 26, 2015

On the radio, they phrased it as "Ole Miss removed the Mississippi State flag"

I was thinking "Why would they be flying their rivals' flag?"

92tide · Oct 26, 2015

good. mississippi needs to update their state flag anyway.

ValuJet · Oct 26, 2015

92tide said:
good. mississippi needs to update their state flag anyway.

Mixed feelings. A lot of people there do not want to give up that tie to an era long gone. That would be the older generation - the younger ones could care less or see it as oppressive if they are in tune with the 50's and 60's. Which it probably is (oppressive). The problem with removing a flag is that it will not bring about instant change except how people outside the state perceive Mississippi. Some of the politicians are undoubtedly going to take a populist stand that "the people have spoken."

What's unfortunate is that it took the sick twisted act of a punk in a Charleston, SC church to finally bring about change. The MS State flag was adopted in 1894 at a time when defiance and emotions were very strong.

My cousin there is a photographer and 20+ years ago he'd taken a series of photos of the MS State Capitol at night with the MS state flag in the foreground. My parents had put one in a nice frame for me and when I'd visit a couple of times a year would always try to get me to take it back with me to wherever I was living (NC, VA, FL). It was actually a lovely picture, but I had no use for it. It is still in their house, unwanted.

Tidewater · Oct 26, 2015

92tide said:
good. mississippi needs to update their state flag anyway.

Yeah, to heck with the law. And to heck with the right of the people of a state to decide an issue.
Those stupid clods had a chance to fix this in 2001 and they voted 64%-36 in favor of the current flag.
Obviously, what they need is some outside force to step in and correct their error in judgment.

Once again, the flag stands in as a symbol of self-government and the rule of law.

92tide · Oct 26, 2015

Tidewater said:
Yeah, to heck with the law. And to heck with the right of the people of a state to decide an issue.
Those stupid clods had a chance to fix this in 2001 and they voted 64%-36 in favor of the current flag.
Obviously, what they need is some outside force to step in and correct their error in judgment.

Once again, the flag stands in as a symbol of self-government and the rule of law.

and you never fail to deliver.

Jon · Oct 26, 2015

Tidewater said:
Once again, the flag used to stand in as a symbol of self-government and the rule of law.

fixed that for you

Tidewater · Oct 26, 2015

To follow up, I crunched a few numbers and came up with this: Copiah, Issaquena, Jasper, Jefferson Davis, Quitman, & Tallahatchie Counties all voted to retain the 1894 flag, even though these counties have African-American majorities. Perhaps, someone should step in and fix their error, since a large number of the voters voted incorrectly. Since they are obviously incapable of voting correctly, maybe the Federal government should step in an just relieve the voters of these counties from having to cast their ballots and should just vote for them.

Tidewater · Oct 26, 2015

Jon said:
fixed that for you

I understand the perspective, but in this case, the people of Mississippi voted, decisively, to retain the flag fourteen years ago.
The University is the wholly-owned subsidiary of the state of Mississippi. Ole Miss is the agent of the creator, the state of Mississippi, so the desires of the students and faculty, while perhaps of interest to legislators, decide nothing. Removing the state flag because the students and faculty do not like it is a clear violation of Mississippi law.
If the students and faculty would like to petition the state government to be emancipated from state control, change the name of the school, refuse all further governmental funding and become a private university, the legislature might approve. But the students/faculty have to win that argument, not just vote to violate state law.
Thus, the flag really is about the right of the people of Mississippi to decide what their state flag looks like and the rule of law (the subordination of the agent to the will of the creator).

92tide · Oct 26, 2015

Tidewater said:
To follow up, I crunched a few numbers and came up with this: Copiah, Issaquena, Jasper, Jefferson Davis, Quitman, & Tallahatchie Counties all voted to retain the 1894 flag, even though these counties have African-American majorities. Perhaps, someone should step in and fix their error, since a large number of the voters voted incorrectly. Since they are obviously incapable of voting correctly, maybe the Federal government should step in an just relieve the voters of these counties from having to cast their ballots and should just vote for them.

maybe you should direct your pedantic ornernyness towards those mississippians who are driving this

Tidewater · Oct 26, 2015

92tide said:
maybe you should direct your pedantic ornernyness towards those mississippians who are driving this

I think I am. This is an internet forum, and I believe they have the internet, even in Mississippi.

Jon · Oct 26, 2015

Tidewater said:
I understand the perspective, but in this case, the people of Mississippi voted, decisively, to retain the flag fourteen years ago.
The University is the wholly-owned subsidiary of the state of Mississippi. Ole Miss is the agent of the creator, the state of Mississippi, so the desires of the students and faculty, while perhaps of interest to legislators, decide nothing. Removing the state flag because the students and faculty do not like it is a clear violation of Mississippi law.
If the students and faculty would like to petition the state government to be emancipated from state control, change the name of the school, refuse all further governmental funding and become a private university, the legislature might approve. But the students/faculty have to win that argument, not just vote to violate state law.
Thus, the flag really is about the right of the people of Mississippi to decide what their state flag looks like and the rule of law (the subordination of the agent to the will of the creator).

none of that matters

what matters is that in 2015 the confederate flag is a symbol of hate and absolutely nothing else.

Tidewater · Oct 26, 2015

Jon said:
none of that matters

what matters is that in 2015 the confederate flag is a symbol of hate and absolutely nothing else.

Yes, I think that is exactly the question at issue.
There are those who feel that the only thing that matters is what they say the flag stands for.
There are others who believe in the rule of law and the right of the people to decide a political issue.

Contra principia negantem non est disputandum.

92tide · Oct 26, 2015

Tidewater said:
I think I am. This is an internet forum, and I believe they have the internet, even in Mississippi.

ok, now you're just talking nonsense

RedStar · Oct 26, 2015

These issues don't have to be so hard.

I think the flag should come down. It's an unnecessary yolk around the Magnolia State. The majority of the people in Mississippi think the flag should stay up. Regardless of the fact that I pretty much agree with them, Ole Miss is breaking the law. Therefore flag should stay up.

It's super simple.

Tidewater · Oct 26, 2015

Jon said:
none of that matters

what matters is that in 2015 the confederate flag is a symbol of hate and absolutely nothing else.

One other point. You have self-identified elsewhere as a libertarian.
I am perfectly capable of examining evidence and argumentation and deciding for myself what any symbol means, just as you are. I would think that, as a libertarian, the idea that one person must surrender to others the power to define what any symbol means to himself would be deeply offensive to a libertarian.

That principle invites several follow-on questions.
1. Who gets to decide what a symbol means?
2. Which groups (if any) have that power, and in regards to which symbols?
3. If some group gets to make the final decision for society at large on the meaning of a symbol, how did they get that power?
4. What are the implications of this power? What if someone dissents from the group's decision?

The whole idea seems to me to be fraught with difficulties. If the Confederate flag means racism and hatred to you, don't fly it. Please disabuse yourself of the idea of dictating to anyone else what it must invariably mean to them. You can suggest that the Confederate flag should mean to me. I'll listen to evidence and argumentation. My mind is wide open.

92tide · Oct 26, 2015

Tidewater said:
One other point. You have self-identified elsewhere as a libertarian.
I am perfectly capable of examining evidence and argumentation and deciding for myself what any symbol means, just as you are. I would think that, as a libertarian, the idea that one person must surrender to others the power to define what any symbol means to himself would be deeply offensive to a libertarian.

That principle invites several follow-on questions.
1. Who gets to decide what a symbol means?
2. Which groups (if any) have that power, and in regards to which symbols?
3. If some group gets to make the final decision for society at large on the meaning of a symbol, how did they get that power?
4. What are the implications of this power? What if someone dissents from the group's decision?

The whole idea seems to me to be fraught with difficulties. If the Confederate flag means racism and hatred to you, don't fly it. Please disabuse yourself of the idea of dictating to anyone else what it must invariably mean to them. You can suggest that the Confederate flag should mean to me. I'll listen to evidence and argumentation. My mind is wide open.

no one is dictating what you have to think about it. you and others can fly it with pride all you want and spend as much energy as you like trying to explain and argue what you think it means.

Jon · Oct 26, 2015

Tidewater said:
One other point. You have self-identified elsewhere as a libertarian.
I am perfectly capable of examining evidence and argumentation and deciding for myself what any symbol means, just as you are. I would think that, as a libertarian, the idea that one person must surrender to others the power to define what any symbol means to himself would be deeply offensive to a libertarian.

That principle invites several follow-on questions.
1. Who gets to decide what a symbol means?
2. Which groups (if any) have that power, and in regards to which symbols?
3. If some group gets to make the final decision for society at large on the meaning of a symbol, how did they get that power?
4. What are the implications of this power? What if someone dissents from the group's decision?

The whole idea seems to me to be fraught with difficulties. If the Confederate flag means racism and hatred to you, don't fly it. Please disabuse yourself of the idea of dictating to anyone else what it must invariably mean to them. You can suggest that the Confederate flag should mean to me. I'll listen to evidence and argumentation. My mind is wide open.

wow, you are reading a lot into this that looking back I never typed

all I said was that the flag = hate, which it very, very clearly does. I made no other comment

RedStar · Oct 26, 2015

92tide said:
no one is dictating what you have to think about it. you and others can fly it with pride all you want and spend as much energy as you like trying to explain and argue what you think it means.

A state funded University is breaking a law and going against the wishes of the citizens of it's state. Whether or not we agree with them is irrelevant.

92tide · Oct 26, 2015

RedStar said:
A state funded University is breaking a law and going against the wishes of the citizens of it's state. Whether or not we agree with them is irrelevant.

then i guess the state will step in and quash this move by ole miss.

State Flag Comes Down at Ole Miss

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