Question: Aliens--do they exist? (not the group Trump is fired up over)

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
No desire to reply to all the great intellectual points made against my theory, hypothesis, so I will not go down that road. I will just say what I think, feel, makes sense to me and leave it at that. ;)
Hey, man. Whatever milks your guernsey. :biggrin:

I do believe in evolution. To a point. The life on this planet evolved to perfectly fit the conditions and environment of this planet, no other! Atmosphere, gravitational pull, radiation, many variables come into play to why we are perfectly suited to Earth and not anywhere else in the solar system and possibly galaxy, universe as far as we know. Our conditions that suit us so perfectly would more than likely prove intolerable to any other life evolving from another physical, material planet, galaxy,
Absolutely correct.

so it is unlikely at all that any aliens residing in the realm we exist in is visiting us!!
I don't know about that. Even we can visit inhospitable places for brief periods of time. We've walked on our own moon, after all. Even assuming there was intelligent life out there, what would keep us apart is distance and time.

The universe is big. Unimaginably, mindnumbingly, outrageously big. The vastness of the distance between any two celestial bodies gives one pause if you realize just what kind of numbers we're looking at here.

But I do not think that the realm of existence we reside in is all there is. 12, 13, 14 billion years that science calculates our universe's existence seems a long time to us humans but in the scheme of things is only a blink of an eye to say a trillion years ago or infinity.
13.7 Bya is the current estimate, but who knows what came before the Big Bang. Time and space behaved in a very abstract manner around the time our universe came to be.

Black holes. Could black holes be the conception of future universes, realms of existence for matter to spring from in the distant future? Did our universe pop into existence from a black hole that existed in another universe in another parallel universe or long distant past universe that has long since died?
Now black holes are actually something I know quite a bit about. There is very little chance our universe exists within a black hole. Let's delve into it.

Imagine for a moment you're on a spacecraft sent to investigate black holes. You're in orbit around one and preparing for your mission. Your goal is to fly within event horizon and, I dunno, make some gravitational measurements or something.

We're going to bend some rules for our thought experiment here. You're spacecraft is indestructible, and won't be extruded into spaghetti by the intense gravity around the event horizon, and it's equipped with engines capable of FTL travel because Dub says screw physics.

As you approach your objective, you'll notice some odd things going on. For one, the black hole is apparently much bigger than you first thought. The event horizon's diameter is about the size of the moon, and you're about the same distance the earth is from the moon. But it's oddly filling up your entire forward view screen. Meanwhile, your rear view screen is acting odd too. The stars that were there before seem brighter, and there are more of them. You find this a bit disconcerting, but in the interest of science, you ardently press on.

Since your forward view screen shows nothing more than a featureless black bowl into which you're descending, your keep an eye on the rear one. As you keep going, the image in the screen shrinks, shrinks and shrinks some more. Eventually, all you see is a single point of light. After a minute or two, it winks out. Congratulations! You're within the event horizon.

Knowing your time is limited before you hit the singularity, you get to work with your measurements. Oddly enough, your instruments have gone crazy. They should all be pointing toward the singularity, but they are somehow indicating the singularity is all around you.

"Screw it. I'm outta here," you decide. You turn your ship 180 degrees and book it. Then you notice something odd. You're instruments indicate the singularity is getting closer! Utterly perplexed by this, you turn the ship up 90 degrees to fly vertically. More of the same. No matter what you try, all directions take you closer to the singularity.

This is clearly nonsense. You cannot believe what your instruments are telling you. It must be a malfunction.

But it isn't. It's the truth. There is no way out. There are no directions that point away from the singularity. Due to the Lovecraftian curvature of spacetime within the event horizon, all the trajectories that would carry you away from the black hole now point into the past.

You have just enough time to reflect on your foolhardiness before you are crushed down to the size of a carbon atom.

This is the definition of the event horizon. It's the boundary separating points in space where there are trajectories that point away from the black hole from points in space where there are none.

The black hole singularity always lies on the future light cone, whereas astronomical observations clearly indicate a hot Big Bang in the past.

Yes I believe our universe will one day die as science predicts. All things physical, material, consisting of matter that lives, or has any kind of physical process that can be considered a process dies in my opinion. Atoms along with all matter in the physical realm are recyclable as energy is.
Google "Heat Death of the universe." Interesting study for you.

Even atoms will eventually disappear as protons will decay into their constituent quarks. All energy will eventually be homogenized throughout the universe and useless. Basic thermodynamics.

That brings me to the question, what is the energy force of life? When the conception of life occurs, what is the force that kick starts life? We have in our power to manipulate DNA, genetics today, but we do not understand the process that triggers life. Is it magic? I don't think anyone believes that but there is something that conception, germination, whatever that occurs to make the manipulations of even man, say in a test tube, to become a life.
Ooh! Sounds new agey!

If we are looking at it scientifically, we must assume a natural cause.

Maybe we are the pinnacle of life, how the heck would I know one way or the other? Man lives these days on average a whopping 75 revolutions around a mid size star on the outskirts of one of who knows how many billion or trillion galaxies and we are supposed to know anything for certain about our origins? I know I am not smart enough to know and I have no degree from any prestigious university in any field of higher learning such as basket weaving and chair stacking! ;)
There is no pinnacle. The simplest organisms thrive far better than we ever could. You harbor untold numbers of bacteria right now!

Evolution is not goal oriented. YECs always like to prattle on about "transitional forms." It's important to keep in mind that you and I are transitional forms.

You may be right to call my ideas and beliefs harebrained! I do have a lot of hair for my age! ;) Evolution may be all the answer you require but for me it raises more questions than it answers. Evolution alone that is! Evolution makes perfect sense for me when it is accompanied with intelligent design. We humans are undoubtedly animals in every sense of the word animal, but we are Earthly animals bound to live out our lives on the planet Earth. I do believe in a spirit, that life energy force that animates mere elements into life forms and I believe that spirit is eternal, infinite.
Evolution is the one that best fits the evidence.

But to pretend science has all of the answers is about as unscientific as it gets.

May I recommend a link?

https://biologos.org

So to answer the the opening question, aliens--do they exist? I say yes they do!! I do not need to prove anything to anyone otherwise, I feel no burden whatsoever!! I am always willing to listen to proof, if you have any, that I am wrong. It better be convincing though and not a bunch of conjecture, hypothesis, guesses! I will still listen to those as you never know, my mind is always open for new ideas!
My answer is "definitely maybe." ;)


Great discussion, entertainment!! :)
:cheers2:
 
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TideMan09

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Carl Sagan in this video states there's more stars in the universe, than there are grains of sand, on all the beaches on Earth..Then when you factor in all the planets that revolves around all those stars..That's a lot of different planets & places where countless other intelligent life must have evolved on..

It would be foolish & just arrogant for us to believe, our lil blue dot we humans lives on, is the only planet that life has evolved on..It boggles the mind to think how intelligent those aliens are, that's million or billion years, more advanced in technology than we are..They may be around us right now & we simply don't know it or could interpret them cause of how advanced they are compared to us humans..

I love watching Carl Sagan cause he explains things about the universe we live in, in a way, that's easy to understand just how small our specie must be to other species out yonder..

Here's The Link..CLICK ME
 
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dvldog

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One of these days there may be intelligent life on earth. But I'm not holding my breath. [emoji851]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Carl Sagan in this video states there's more stars in the universe, than there are grains of sand, on all the beaches on Earth..Then when you factor in all the planets that revolves around all those stars..That's a lot of different planets & places where countless other intelligent life must have evolved on..

It would be foolish & just arrogant for us to believe, our lil blue dot we humans lives on, is the only planet that life has evolved on..It boggles the mind to think how intelligent those aliens are, that's million or billion years, more advanced in technology than we are..They may be around us right now & we simply don't know it or could interpret them cause of how advanced they are compared to us humans..

I love watching Carl Sagan cause he explains things about the universe we live in, in a way, that's easy to understand just how small our specie must be to other species out yonder..

Here's The Link..CLICK ME
Sagan was easily one of the best popularizers of the past century. I miss him. Cosmos was one of my favorites.

May I recommend his book The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark? It's a excellent primer for skeptical and rational though and was one of my favorites in my youth.
 

Bama Reb

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Audub said:
I don't know about that. Even we can visit inhospitable places for brief periods of time. We've walked on our own moon, after all. Even assuming there was intelligent life out there, what would keep us apart is distance and time.
We see in the newsstand mags about there being intelligent life on Mars, but we also readily dismiss it as being impossible. In small minds, maybe. But who are we to say what life may or may not have adapted to the conditions there, or on any other 'inhospitable' planet?
 
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AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
We see in the newsstand mags about there being intelligent life on Mars, but we also readily dismiss it as being impossible. In small minds, maybe. But who are we to say what life may or may not have adapted to the conditions there, or on any other 'inhospitable' planet?
Inhospitable is a relative term. what may be paradise for us could be a deathworld for other races, and vice versa.
 
Assuming their propulsion capability is no better than ours...if they have been or are here, they would have much better technology than us...
You assume that an extraterrestrial civilization will have already produced a Zefram Cochrane. But I have no reason to doubt Einstein's limitation on light speed. Interstellar travel is not impossible, only very unlikely.
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Doubtful there's any life on Mars. Maybe some extremophiles some time in the past, but intelligent life on Mars is a pipe dream.

You want to find actual, active life in our solar system? The Jovian moon Europa is a long shot, but our best bet. Life there would almost assuredly be very simple. Think archaea. Maybe as complex as those tube worms you see on hydrothermal vents, if we're really lucky.

Have to look light years away for any chance at intelligent life.
 
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MOAN

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The mountain of eye witness testimony to UFO's by reputable witnesses tells me that something unknown is going on even if I had never seen UFO's myself. Seen a UFO on at least 3 separate occasions of late, the past couple years, once with my son, once with my wife and once by my lonesome. All three during the day time and all three disappearing into the clear blue sky. My mom when she was in the 5th grade at Guntersville elementary in the early mid 50's seen, along with the rest of her classmates and teacher, a flying silverish looking craft outside the school window. I know others personally who I regard as trustworthy that has told me of their UFO experiences.

Does this prove aliens exist, no, but it does show something is going on that is unexplained. The government has had projects, Grudge and Blue book, looking into UFO sightings, so they must have thought it was worthy to investigate as well at one time. They of course explained away most of the sightings but not all! Of course you know you can trust the government to tell us everything they know, and it wouldn't surprise me if they had a hidden space program they not telling us about which could explain a lot of UFO sightings that are unexplained such as the ones I seen.

There is an impressive list of eye witnesses from former government employees, military, NASA, private contractors, civilian airline pilots, air traffic controllers, police and such to UFO's. Will link to many of the testimony witnesses if anyone would like to see for themselves. This video link has several witness testimonies if you care to hear what some have reported seeing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk

Another good video if this subject interest you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWUCDHofEho&list=PLev4bIuHBK04j3DejXZVE7udgFyjSLTpn

There is absolutely a mountain of eye witness testimony to the UFO phenomenon but again that does not prove aliens, but if you dismiss all these witness testimonies as bunk how can any kind of eye witness testimony in courts of law be trusted. People have absolutely been incarcerated by only eye witness testimony alone, some deservedly so and some not.

To me the fact of religious myths from our earliest written history is further possible proof of outside extraterrestrial influence, contact, albeit circumstantial as the proof of eye witness testimony of UFO's today is. I think religions may have sprung from alien contact, as those humans back then felt so compelled to worship something if there were aliens visiting them they would have viewed them as gods. Zechariah Sitchens books such as "The Twelfth PLanet" and subsequent books by him there after are interesting reads on the subject although not proof of anything.

This Youtube link to the playlist from the Sirius Disclosure web site of 61 testimonies of a wide variety of governmental and military witnesses including Paul Hellyer, a Canadian former minister of defense, is a good watch if you are interested in the subject. http://www.siriusdisclosure.com/witness-testimony/

None of this I reckon is "proof" but I have not seen indisputable proof of evolution or proof of god for that matter either. This is just for entertainment purposes only! ;)
 
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mittman

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Hey, man. Whatever milks your guernsey. :biggrin:



Absolutely correct.



I don't know about that. Even we can visit inhospitable places for brief periods of time. We've walked on our own moon, after all. Even assuming there was intelligent life out there, what would keep us apart is distance and time.

The universe is big. Unimaginably, mindnumbingly, outrageously big. The vastness of the distance between any two celestial bodies gives one pause if you realize just what kind of numbers we're looking at here.



13.7 Bya is the current estimate, but who knows what came before the Big Bang. Time and space behaved in a very abstract manner around the time our universe came to be.



Now black holes are actually something I know quite a bit about. There is very little chance our universe exists within a black hole. Let's delve into it.

Imagine for a moment you're on a spacecraft sent to investigate black holes. You're in orbit around one and preparing for your mission. Your goal is to fly within event horizon and, I dunno, make some gravitational measurements or something.

We're going to bend some rules for our thought experiment here. You're spacecraft is indestructible, and won't be extruded into spaghetti by the intense gravity around the event horizon, and it's equipped with engines capable of FTL travel because Dub says screw physics.

As you approach your objective, you'll notice some odd things going on. For one, the black hole is apparently much bigger than you first thought. The event horizon's diameter is about the size of the moon, and you're about the same distance the earth is from the moon. But it's oddly filling up your entire forward view screen. Meanwhile, your rear view screen is acting odd too. The stars that were there before seem brighter, and there are more of them. You find this a bit disconcerting, but in the interest of science, you ardently press on.

Since your forward view screen shows nothing more than a featureless black bowl into which you're descending, your keep an eye on the rear one. As you keep going, the image in the screen shrinks, shrinks and shrinks some more. Eventually, all you see is a single point of light. After a minute or two, it winks out. Congratulations! You're within the event horizon.

Knowing your time is limited before you hit the singularity, you get to work with your measurements. Oddly enough, your instruments have gone crazy. They should all be pointing toward the singularity, but they are somehow indicating the singularity is all around you.

"Screw it. I'm outta here," you decide. You turn your ship 180 degrees and book it. Then you notice something odd. You're instruments indicate the singularity is getting closer! Utterly perplexed by this, you turn the ship up 90 degrees to fly vertically. More of the same. No matter what you try, all directions take you closer to the singularity.

This is clearly nonsense. You cannot believe what your instruments are telling you. It must be a malfunction.

But it isn't. It's the truth. There is no way out. There are no directions that point away from the singularity. Due to the Lovecraftian curvature of spacetime within the event horizon, all the trajectories that would carry you away from the black hole now point into the past.

You have just enough time to reflect on your foolhardiness before you are crushed down to the size of a carbon atom.

This is the definition of the event horizon. It's the boundary separating points in space where there are trajectories that point away from the black hole from points in space where there are none.

The black hole singularity always lies on the future light cone, whereas astronomical observations clearly indicate a hot Big Bang in the past.



Google "Heat Death of the universe." Interesting study for you.

Even atoms will eventually disappear as protons will decay into their constituent quarks. All energy will eventually be homogenized throughout the universe and useless. Basic thermodynamics.



Ooh! Sounds new agey!

If we are looking at it scientifically, we must assume a natural cause.



There is no pinnacle. The simplest organisms thrive far better than we ever could. You harbor untold numbers of bacteria right now!

Evolution is not goal oriented. YECs always like to prattle on about "transitional forms." It's important to keep in mind that you and I are transitional forms.



Evolution is the one that best fits the evidence.

But to pretend science has all of the answers is about as unscientific as it gets.

May I recommend a link?

https://biologos.org



My answer is "definitely maybe." ;)




:cheers2:
Lots of absolutes in this. While this describes a lot of what is considered our best knowledge, most of what you are considering true, is very good conjecture.

Statement like this always give me pause: "If we are looking at it scientifically, we must assume a natural cause." Nature means different things to different people. Some see every being as having an effect. Some believe we have to assume a deity (whatever that means to whoever) has had no effect and everything happened as a result of forces of chance, I personally consider this more difficult instead of less to buy into the more we have learned over time.
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Lots of absolutes in this. While this describes a lot of what is considered our best knowledge, most of what you are considering true, is very good conjecture.
Very good conjecture? I believe that it is right for scientists, after they have overwhelming evidence and no other possible explanation to declare theory "correct" and then move on.

We teach heliocentrism in the classroom with no competing theories, physics classes everywhere use Newtonian/Classical mechanics. Einstein's special relativity is further confirmed with each passing decade. We don't seriously present the competing theory even though it was once very controversial.

Statement like this always give me pause: "If we are looking at it scientifically, we must assume a natural cause." Nature means different things to different people. Some see every being as having an effect. Some believe we have to assume a deity (whatever that means to whoever) has had no effect and everything happened as a result of forces of chance, I personally consider this more difficult instead of less to buy into the more we have learned over time.
As I said earlier, a core tenet of the scientific method is methodological naturalism. If you do not assume a natural cause, you end up with a God-of-the-Gaps hypothesis that is not falsifiable, and that flies in the face of the very definition of the scientific method.
 
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mittman

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Very good conjecture? I believe that it is right for scientists, after they have overwhelming evidence and no other possible explanation to declare theory "correct" and then move on.

We teach heliocentrism in the classroom with no competing theories, physics classes everywhere use Newtonian/Classical mechanics. Einstein's special relativity is further confirmed with each passing decade. We don't seriously present the competing theory even though it was once very controversial.

As I said earlier, a core tenet of the scientific method is methodological naturalism. If you do not assume a natural cause, you end up with a God-of-the-Gaps hypothesis that is not falsifiable, and that flies in the face of the very definition of the scientific method.
I agree with this in practice that trying to just fill in the gaps with God did this is not only problematic, but false. Like I said, the statement just gives me pause, as does the normal method of stating theoretical things in language of certainty.

Equating what we know about the solar system with what we believe based on our observations of black holes is a good example. There are always relative levels of certainty, and I just get tired of people not stating it that way. It is a personal soap box for me.
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
I agree with this in practice that trying to just fill in the gaps with God did this is not only problematic, but false. Like I said, the statement just gives me pause, as does the normal method of stating theoretical things in language of certainty.
EDIT: Not necessarily false, but certainly problematic.

Some things are both theory and fact. What delineates the two in your mind?

You won't be catching me saying earth might be an oblate spheroid, black holes might exist, or the speed of light might be 299792.458 km/s.

Equating what we know about the solar system with what we believe based on our observations of black holes is a good example. There are always relative levels of certainty, and I just get tired of people not stating it that way. It is a personal soap box for me.
Black holes and the related physics are actually quite well understood. Now I did take some liberties with my thought experiment, but it was essentially correct.
 
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92tide

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Some things are both theory and fact. What delineates the two in your mind?

You won't be catching me saying earth might be an oblate spheroid, black holes might exist, or the speed of light might be 299792.458 km/s.



Black holes and the related physics are actually quite well understood. Now I did take some liberties with my thought experiment, but it was essentially correct.
han may have made the kessel run in under 12 parsecs
 
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Catfish

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Nerd rage about how parsecs are a measurement of distance and not time in 5...4...3...2...1...
Somewhere on the interwebs, there's a detailed explanation of how, depending on the area of the galaxy, the concentration, types and gravitational pull of stars, etc, that the Kessel run being discussed in parsecs MAY have made sense. But, the question was how fast the Falcon was, so it makes no sense at all in context.

Non-nerds may now return to the real world.
 
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AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Somewhere on the interwebs, there's a detailed explanation of how, depending on the area of the galaxy, the concentration, types and gravitational pull of stars, etc, that the Kessel run being discussed in parsecs MAY have made sense. But, the questions was how fast the Falcon was, so it makes no sense at all in context.

Non-nerds may now return to the real world.
LOL. Or George just saw parallax of one arcsecond and went with it.
 

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