Link: ISIS' ("DAESH") underlying theology...

CaliforniaTide · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

Another part of mainstream Islamic theology is that the Prophet Muhammad are the "final" chosen group of God to carry out His message to the world. God started with Moses and Jews, and they got it wrong, and then moved onto Jesus and the Christians, but the Christians got it wrong. So, God has now chosen the Muslims as the final group. Jesus is also seen in the Koran as the judge of those going to the Islamic heaven and hell (meaning in general, not just divine intervention in Jerusalem). Thus, because of their previous statuses, the Koran also says that Jews and Christians are to be treated as "people of the book", meaning that they shouldn't be mistreated due to their relationship with God. Moses and Jesus are something like prophets, like the Prophet Muhammad, but their people "got it wrong" and it's up to the Muslims to fix everything.

Bamaro · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

Tidewater said:
US and Russian air strikes.
It appears that all US strikes are in Daesh-controlled areas or on the confrontation lines between Daesh and the western-backed rebels.
Most Russian strikes are against the western-backed areas, and a few against Daesh-controlled areas.

Maybe now that it is confirmed that their jetliner was brought down by a bomb, most likely by ISIS, their bombing emphasis will shift.

81usaf92 · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

AlistarWills said:
This makes absolutely no sense to me. Jesus was on this earth as a Jew, whom they abhor and vow to kill every last one of them. Yet they claim he's to rescue them???

Islam uses "the new kid on the block" approach into proving their religon. Their first couple of suras are used to disprove the other two religons wrong. They basically say that the Jews and Christians got alot right but alot wrong, and it angered God. They also state that God chose the Jews through Issac, but they strayed away and he turned to the people of Ismael. They use Jesus as a prophet in order to disprove Christianity.

pluckngrit · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

I can see AQ and ISIS joining forces despite their differences. Especially after what will hopefully be a long and effective bombing campaign.

81usaf92 · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

pluckngrit said:
I can see AQ and ISIS joining forces despite their differences. Especially after what will hopefully be a long and effective bombing campaign.

eh... I dont see it. Isis is mostly Shia and AQ is Sunni. Most religious radicals believe in one way and one way only. While the Shia and Sunni difference is a very odd difference, it is a very substantial one with Islam.

mittman · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

TIDE-HSV said:
You've hit exactly why I started to reconsider the boots on ground option. Of course, their vision of the apocalypse is that they lose that battle and end up cornered in Jerusalem with only 5K men, when they're rescued by Jesus' return to kill the anti-Messiah. How do you even begin a conversation with nut-jobs like that?

Yup I assume all of the leaders will insist on being the ones holed up in Jerusalem. I don't think you can have a conversation or diplomacy. They consider diplomacy with non-believers apostasy. There is no give and take.

This very much reminds me of the conversation that was going on about Saddam Hussein. There is no good solution, they are not going to hold to an agreement, and the problem is not going to go away.

There is obviously a lot of differences. With Saddam he kept prodding to see what he could get away with. He obfuscated everything, made back door deals past the sanctions, and tested the protected areas thinking he would eventually wear us down and wait us out. These guys are forcing the issue.

Tidewater · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

Brookings piece on Abu Bakr al Baghdadi.
Long read.

81usaf92 · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

mittman said:
Yup I assume all of the leaders will insist on being the ones holed up in Jerusalem. I don't think you can have a conversation or diplomacy. They consider diplomacy with non-believers apostasy. There is no give and take.

This very much reminds me of the conversation that was going on about Saddam Hussein. There is no good solution, they are not going to hold to an agreement, and the problem is not going to go away.

There is obviously a lot of differences. With Saddam he kept prodding to see what he could get away with. He obfuscated everything, made back door deals past the sanctions, and tested the protected areas thinking he would eventually wear us down and wait us out. These guys are forcing the issue.

Not to be a saddam apologists, but Saddam was using bad intel to keep the Iranians at bay. Plus looking back, it feels that saddam used Islam more of a platform rather than an actual religon. Pretty much every Arab and Muslim nation despised Saddam and it was the fear of biological weapons and his "Islamic" faith that prevented them from taking him out. When Saddam took Kuwait, a Saudi by the name of Osama bin Laden volunteered to restore order to the Shia nation and go and kill Saddam himself. If a Sunni wants to get involved in a war between two Shia nations, that tells you what Saddam meant to the Islamic world.

NationalTitles18 · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

81usaf92 said:
Not to be a saddam apologists, but Saddam was using bad intel to keep the Iranians at bay. Plus looking back, it feels that saddam used Islam more of a platform rather than an actual religon. Pretty much every Arab and Muslim nation despised Saddam and it was the fear of biological weapons and his "Islamic" faith that prevented them from taking him out. When Saddam took Kuwait, a Saudi by the name of Osama bin Laden volunteered to restore order to the Shia nation and go and kill Saddam himself. If a Sunni wants to get involved in a war between two Shia nations, that tells you what Saddam meant to the Islamic world.

Saddam and bin Laden were both sunni's, as was/is a majority of Kuwaiti's. iiRC bin Laden wanted to fight to remove US forces and was angry at the Saudi's for allowing the US to stage troops and "occupy" Islamic lands. Iran is mostly shia.

mittman · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

81usaf92 said:
Not to be a saddam apologists, but Saddam was using bad intel to keep the Iranians at bay. Plus looking back, it feels that saddam used Islam more of a platform rather than an actual religon. Pretty much every Arab and Muslim nation despised Saddam and it was the fear of biological weapons and his "Islamic" faith that prevented them from taking him out. When Saddam took Kuwait, a Saudi by the name of Osama bin Laden volunteered to restore order to the Shia nation and go and kill Saddam himself. If a Sunni wants to get involved in a war between two Shia nations, that tells you what Saddam meant to the Islamic world.

Not to side track, but what I am talking about is well after all of that.

mittman · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

NationalTitles15 said:
Saddam and bin Laden were both sunni's, as was/is a majority of Kuwaiti's. iiRC bin Laden wanted to fight to remove US forces and was angry at the Saudi's for allowing the US to stage troops and "occupy" Islamic lands. Iran is mostly shia.

I believe you are correct on the sects. I doubt Saddam was all that religious myself. He seemed to be pretty secular unless it was needed for his purposes. IMO he was just a dominant dictatorial type. Iraq and Iran were fighting long before Kuwait, before we beat him back out of Kuwait, and before a decade of attempted containment. The belief that Saddam had and would use chemical weapons was in part based on the fact that he did just that when fighting Iran.

I don't necessarily blame or absolve Bush or Obama for what is happening now. One can't always determine the end result of an action, or what a subsequent administration will do that helps or undermines what was done earlier. One can only try to do what appears to be the correct course of action at the time.

In the end, we (as a world and as a nation) still have a problem that is not going to go away. How to address that problem is what reminds me of the discussion in the early 2000's. All of the Clinton era "safe area" no fly zones. Taking away the Oil (or having humanitarian vouchers for food) etc. There was even a Putin thread where he was telling us that Saddam was working on ways to attack us directly.

Tidewater · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

Bamaro said:
Maybe now that it is confirmed that their jetliner was brought down by a bomb, most likely by ISIS, their bombing emphasis will shift.

Maybe. But Putin seems the kind of guy to use a crisis to further objectives in other areas. I believe he just wants to support Assad in power and earn loyalty with Assad to keep an active Russian base at Latakia. If that means bombing Daesh back to the Stone Age, so be it. If that means bombing the western-backed rebels back to the Stone Age, that's fine with him as well.

Tidewater · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

mittman said:
In the end, we (as a world and as a nation) still have a problem that is not going to go away. How to address that problem is what reminds me of the discussion in the early 2000's. All of the Clinton era "safe area" no fly zones. Taking away the Oil (or having humanitarian vouchers for food) etc. There was even a Putin thread where he was telling us that Saddam was working on ways to attack us directly.

Geography does not help the west. The Damascus government hold the Mediterranean coast, and the Russians have used this area to set up their base at Latakia. (This may explain in part why the Russian bombing has been concentrated against the rebel area closest to Latakia.) The western-based rebels have no such luxury (unless someone wants to come in through the Golan or WN Jordan).
No fly areas won't help much. Daesh does not fly much anyway. The biggest purchases of Daesh oil is probably Turkey, so no embargo of buying oil from them will work unless the Turks are on board.

KentuckianaBFan · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

Tidewater said:
Maybe. But Putin seems the kind of guy to use a crisis to further objectives in other areas. I believe he just wants to support Assad in power and earn loyalty with Assad to keep an active Russian base at Latakia. If that means bombing Daesh back to the Stone Age, so be it. If that means bombing the western-backed rebels back to the Stone Age, that's fine with him as well.

I suspect that he will bomb the the biggest threat to Assad first, then move on to the next threat...

NationalTitles18 · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

mittman said:
I believe you are correct on the sects. I doubt Saddam was all that religious myself. He seemed to be pretty secular unless it was needed for his purposes. IMO he was just a dominant dictatorial type. Iraq and Iran were fighting long before Kuwait, before we beat him back out of Kuwait, and before a decade of attempted containment. The belief that Saddam had and would use chemical weapons was in part based on the fact that he did just that when fighting Iran.

I don't necessarily blame or absolve Bush or Obama for what is happening now. One can't always determine the end result of an action, or what a subsequent administration will do that helps or undermines what was done earlier. One can only try to do what appears to be the correct course of action at the time.

In the end, we (as a world and as a nation) still have a problem that is not going to go away. How to address that problem is what reminds me of the discussion in the early 2000's. All of the Clinton era "safe area" no fly zones. Taking away the Oil (or having humanitarian vouchers for food) etc. There was even a Putin thread where he was telling us that Saddam was working on ways to attack us directly.

i know Saddam only used religion when it helped his cause, but it is important in terms of where and from whom he might garner more/less support. I mostly wanted to correct one of several factual errors in the post to which I replied.

The Ottoman Empire was divided the way it was into states with competing elements after much consideration by the victors of WWI. The strategy was successful for nearly 100 years and even this latest tempest can be termed somewhat successful in terms of assuring no one nation is powerful enough to re-establish the Empire/Caliphate. We have largely worked recently to destroy the factions and the strongholds that until then had prevented what is happening now.
If we allow this group to maintain and expand control it is only a matter of time before they gain the true power of a state and upgrade their military strength. They don't need to be able to win a conventional war against the West. They are nearing capacity to to truly overrun Iraq and/or Syria (perhaps in 6 months to 2 years time).
Once that happens Jordan might be next. Iran might willingly join forces if they can oust the Saudi's. If they can establish control in Libya and Egypt they will have Israel surrounded. Lebanon won't be difficult to overtake and may join willingly by this time as well. Then the war (With Israel)would go beyond conventional if they can muster even a dirty bomb. Then it might as well be Armageddon.

So if we want to prevent them from fulfilling their own prophesy we have to try now. I say try because I don't believe we will stop them. We lack the resolve. We lack the wisdom. We lack the leadership.

81usaf92 · Nov 17, 2015

NationalTitles15 said:
i know Saddam only used religion when it helped his cause, but it is important in terms of where and from whom he might garner more/less support. I mostly wanted to correct one of several factual errors in the post to which I replied.

The Ottoman Empire was divided the way it was into states with competing elements after much consideration by the victors of WWI. The strategy was successful for nearly 100 years and even this latest tempest can be termed somewhat successful in terms of assuring no one nation is powerful enough to re-establish the Empire/Caliphate. We have largely worked recently to destroy the factions and the strongholds that until then had prevented what is happening now.
If we allow this group to maintain and expand control it is only a matter of time before they gain the true power of a state and upgrade their military strength. They don't need to be able to win a conventional war against the West. They are nearing capacity to to truly overrun Iraq and/or Syria (perhaps in 6 months to 2 years time).
Once that happens Jordan might be next. Iran might willingly join forces if they can oust the Saudi's. If they can establish control in Libya and Egypt they will have Israel surrounded. Lebanon won't be difficult to overtake and may join willingly by this time as well. Then the war (With Israel)would go beyond conventional if they can muster even a dirty bomb. Then it might as well be Armageddon.

So if we want to prevent them from fulfilling their own prophesy we have to try now. I say try because I don't believe we will stop them. We lack the resolve. We lack the wisdom. We lack the leadership.

I seriously doubt Iran would side with an Arab empire unless Mecca is in jeopardy. The only reason they back Assad right now is because they have deals with Russia for the Mediterranean.

mittman · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

Tidewater said:
Brookings piece on Abu Bakr al Baghdadi.
Long read.

Thanks, this one does a better job of explaining the early links with Al Qaida.

Some of it is very disappointing. There was always going to be a fine line when trying to rebuild Iraq as to how much influence to allow the former Baathists to have. I am not sure anything could have been done differently that would ensure a greater level of success. My personal opinion at the time was that there needed to be at least three separate provincial areas of Iraq instead of trying to force a central government in Bagdad, but I now wonder if that course of action would have been any more successful. I can see the northern one even with building up a Kurdish power base could still have been susceptible to the same outcome.

Whatever we do now I think we need to ensure we maintain as close a relationship as possible with Turkey and Jordan. Both of them have been at least fairly good allies, and neither of them want this to continue. Whether or not it comes back to bite us (as it often has), showing that if you want to be friends we are good friends will have benefits down the road elsewhere.

TIDE-HSV · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

81usaf92 said:
eh... I dont see it. Isis is mostly Shia and AQ is Sunni. Most religious radicals believe in one way and one way only. While the Shia and Sunni difference is a very odd difference, it is a very substantial one with Islam.

I think you got that flipped. ISIS is totally Sunni. The Shia are among the ones doomed to death...

TIDE-HSV · Nov 17, 2015

81usaf92 said:
I seriously doubt Iran would side with an Arab empire unless Mecca is in jeopardy. The only reason they back Assad right now is because they have deals with Russia for the Mediterranean.

Actually, religion is thicker than blood. The Iranians are the sponsors of the Hezbollah, who are both Shi'a and Arab. Likewise, Assad and his tribe are Alewite, which is a variation of Shi'a. And the are Arabs...

Jon · Nov 17, 2015

Re: ISIS' underlying theology...

here's a radical idea

let's evacuate Jerusalem and demolish it, brick by brick, salt the earth, nuke it from space (only way to be sure) and just remove it from the face of the earth

If it no longer exists, none of the prophecies can hold. All the end times BS can stop. Jewish, Christian, Islamic, all of it

Maybe we can become a people that look to the present and the future rather than a people who can't wait for the end.

Link: ISIS' ("DAESH") underlying theology...

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