Recruiting the Right players

bamaslammer · Dec 22, 2015

I've heard older coaches say this for years and I'm really starting to understand the fallacy of recruiting and it seems to be getting more critical as time goes on. We are seeing it over and over where blue chip talent isn't working out because they lack the character, patience or the grit to become champions.

Cases in point:

* No other team has signed more top QB's than Texas A&M and they now have nothing because nobody wanted to work for it.

* I'm not sure if any school ever signed a class like the one Ole Miss Signed in 2013, they will leave with zero championships.

* Auburn in general, the place where five star talent goes to die.

I'm seeing repeating patterns where younger less experienced coaches are signing top rated talent, talent we are recruiting as well, it appears they are going elsewhere because of the promise of an easier path to stardom or playing time, but when times get tough, which they always will, these players do not rise to the occasion like champions do.

Meanwhile look at the four teams in the playoffs. Look at their teams, you see grit. you see players who made themselves into great players. you see coaches who are old school.

Saban has described this team as having Grit several times. Some examples.

Jacob Coker, a three star player who would not give up even after years on the bench and will end up with his feet and hands in concrete.

Kenyan Drake who arrived with Yeldon, he had no fanfare but kept fighting even when he was horrifically injured

Richard Mullaney who with less athletic talent fights for every ball thrown to him.

Michael Nysewander who came from a walkon to a hero in the LSU game

Ryan Kelly who was undersized and unwanted by Ohio State and came here, became a leader and won the Remington Trophy

Eddie Jackson a three star player that had few significant offers who went on to start at two backfield positions and overcome major injury

Jarred Reed who was going nowhere in jr college but MADE himself into a great player.

Reggie Ragland the #1 rated inside linebacker in America according to many recruiting services who sat unnoticed on the bench for two years with many calling him a "bust". Instead of quitting he got after it and won a starting job and probably a big paycheck very soon.

Grit. If I were close to the team I'm sure there would be more stories of what amazing men we have on our team. So as we watch a few five star players get away from us in December. Let's remember that it's not the ones that get away from you, it's the ones who you sign that you need to concern yourself with. and I know we will sign some more players who aren't looking for the easy path to success, who understand that nothing worth having is easy, who expect to be part of something bigger than themselves, and who have the sort of GRIT you can count on when times are tough.

Roll Tide

BAMAVILLE · Dec 22, 2015

Harmost · Dec 22, 2015

Is your point that recruiting blue chip talent is not a good foundation for success? If so, Alabama has more blue chip talent than anybody, and things are going historically well.

Or is your point that you don't generally want to recruit talented guys that are headaches? If that's it, then you're right, but be wary of venturing so far out on limbs like that.

RTR91 · Dec 22, 2015

bamaslammer said:
I've heard older coaches say this for years and I'm really starting to understand the fallacy of recruiting and it seems to be getting more critical as time goes on. We are seeing it over and over where blue chip talent isn't working out because they lack the character, patience or the grit to become champions.

Cases in point:

* No other team has signed more top QB's than Texas A&M and they now have nothing because nobody wanted to work for it.

Moral of the story: Coaches, don't make promises you can't keep like telling a freshman he'll start over the guy already on the team that heard the same pitch the prior year.

* I'm not sure if any school ever signed a class like the one Ole Miss Signed in 2013, they will leave with zero championships.

But we also know why they had that recruiting class. All that talent and no division title or SEC title or playoff bid points to a problem with coaching.

* Auburn in general, the place where five star talent goes to die.

Like Ole Miss, this is on the coaches and a failure to develop the talent.

I'm seeing repeating patterns where younger less experienced coaches are signing top rated talent, talent we are recruiting as well, it appears they are going elsewhere because of the promise of an easier path to stardom or playing time, but when times get tough, which they always will, these players do not rise to the occasion like champions do.

That's more about coaching than the player, though.

Meanwhile look at the four teams in the playoffs. Look at their teams, you see grit. you see players who made themselves into great players. you see coaches who are old school.

Saban has described this team as having Grit several times. Some examples.

Jacob Coker, a three star player who would not give up even after years on the bench and will end up with his feet and hands in concrete.

Kenyan Drake who arrived with Yeldon, he had no fanfare but kept fighting even when he was horrifically injured

Richard Mullaney who with less athletic talent fights for every ball thrown to him.

Michael Nysewander who came from a walkon to a hero in the LSU game

Ryan Kelly who was undersized and unwanted by Ohio State and came here, became a leader and won the Remington Trophy

Eddie Jackson a three star player that had few significant offers who went on to start at two backfield positions and overcome major injury

Jarred Reed who was going nowhere in jr college but MADE himself into a great player.

Reggie Ragland the #1 rated inside linebacker in America according to many recruiting services who sat unnoticed on the bench for two years with many calling him a "bust". Instead of quitting he got after it and won a starting job and probably a big paycheck very soon.

Grit. If I were close to the team I'm sure there would be more stories of what amazing men we have on our team. So as we watch a few five star players get away from us in December. Let's remember that it's not the ones that get away from you, it's the ones who you sign that you need to concern yourself with. and I know we will sign some more players who aren't looking for the easy path to success, who understand that nothing worth having is easy, who expect to be part of something bigger than themselves, and who have the sort of GRIT you can count on when times are tough.

Roll Tide

Worth noting, Eddie Jackson was only a three star because of his questionable academics. He was like Eddie Lacey - recruiting services loved him but didn't rank him as high as they wanted because they weren't sure he would qualify.

bamaslammer · Dec 22, 2015

Harmost said:
Is your point that recruiting blue chip talent is not a good foundation for success? If so, Alabama has more blue chip talent than anybody, and things are going historically well.

Or is your point that you don't generally want to recruit talented guys that are headaches? If that's it, then you're right, but be wary of venturing so far out on limbs like that.

No, it's obvious that blue chip talent is needed to win championships, what I am saying is that not all blue chip talent is the same. There are very few five star players and I'd say a good percentage of those go on to be good or great college players. But there are a ton of four and three star guys. These make up the bulk of everyones class and some will become difference makers and some will amount to nothing, Finding the right ones is key

bamaslammer · Dec 22, 2015

RTR91 said:
Worth noting, Eddie Jackson was only a three star because of his questionable academics. He was like Eddie Lacey - recruiting services loved him but didn't rank him as high as they wanted because they weren't sure he would qualify.

True his rating was low due to grades but I believe he had not actually played much football either, but Saban saw the film and saw something, it certainly wasn't overwhelming speed because we know Jackson is no speedster. He obviously met the young man and saw something as well. I believe this is a huge part of Saban's success, his ability to see more than what is on the surface and also I believe only a certain type of player wants to play for a coach like Saban, a player who isn't scared away by the thought of having to compete to get on the field. A player who is not intimidated by a challenge

RTR91 · Dec 22, 2015

bamaslammer said:
True his rating was low due to grades but I believe he had not actually played much football either, but Saban saw the film and saw something, it certainly wasn't overwhelming speed because we know Jackson is no speedster. He obviously met the young man and saw something as well. I believe this is a huge part of Saban's success, his ability to see more than what is on the surface and also I believe only a certain type of player wants to play for a coach like Saban, a player who isn't scared away by the thought of having to compete to get on the field. A player who is not intimidated by a challenge

247 lists him running a 4.38.

Remember, his speed took a hit last year after tearing ACL.

BigGunn · Dec 23, 2015

Eddie Lacey had a great rating, as I recall. Several on this board had him above TR3.

B1GTide · Dec 23, 2015

Not to get into specifics, but it takes a lot of things to have success in recruiting - and getting lucky is certainly a part of that. This year Alabama has been lucky and unlucky at the same time. Unlucky in that you have lost so many RBs over the last 18 months who could have helped this season and next. Lucky in that it allowed the best RB in your history to get more touches than he ever would have had all of those players been available. What matters is how things turn out, and they have turned out great so far for Alabama fans.

Gr8hope · Dec 23, 2015

"Luck" always plays a part in a ballgame, no one can control the way the ball bounces all the time. Without hard work and grit luck is worthless.

RTR91 · Dec 23, 2015

BigGunn said:
Eddie Lacey had a great rating, as I recall. Several on this board had him above TR3.

Rivals ranked him the #13 running back in the 2009 class. You are correct in saying that some on here had him higher than Trent. From what I recall, the recruiting services didn't rank him as high because of his shaky academics.

Harmost · Dec 23, 2015

bamaslammer said:
No, it's obvious that blue chip talent is needed to win championships, what I am saying is that not all blue chip talent is the same. There are very few five star players and I'd say a good percentage of those go on to be good or great college players. But there are a ton of four and three star guys. These make up the bulk of everyones class and some will become difference makers and some will amount to nothing, Finding the right ones is key

Ah, then I think my comment about going out on limbs is even more applicable.

gtgilbert · Dec 23, 2015

bamaslammer said:
No, it's obvious that blue chip talent is needed to win championships, what I am saying is that not all blue chip talent is the same. There are very few five star players and I'd say a good percentage of those go on to be good or great college players. But there are a ton of four and three star guys. These make up the bulk of everyones class and some will become difference makers and some will amount to nothing, Finding the right ones is key

Agree 100% - Read an article a while back that Saban would go after an athlete that met his criteria over someone with a high ranking that didn't even if they were a natural. Some of that criteria is physical; height, weight, speed, flexibility. Some of Saban's criteria he gathers information on is mental; how a guy reacts after a bad play, does he sulk or re-focus, how hard he works on and off the field. I think this later part is what you're talking about. Sometimes the 5* guys are just so good in HS they don't have to exhibit a lot of mental strength because they are just that much better than the other guys on the field.

BigBama · Dec 23, 2015

gtgilbert said:
Agree 100% - Read an article a while back that Saban would go after an athlete that met his criteria over someone with a high ranking that didn't even if they were a natural. Some of that criteria is physical; height, weight, speed, flexibility. Some of Saban's criteria he gathers information on is mental; how a guy reacts after a bad play, does he sulk or re-focus, how hard he works on and off the field. I think this later part is what you're talking about. Sometimes the 5* guys are just so good in HS they don't have to exhibit a lot of mental strength because they are just that much better than the other guys on the field.

I couldn't agree with you more. I really think the athletic difference between the top 10 percent of college players is very little. The intangibles and coachability of the player is what allows that player to develop. The mental side of the game is much more than most of us want to acknowledge. These young guys are under a tremendous amount of pressure to perform and the ones that have been prepared mentally and have a more stable mental framework to begin with seen to be able to handle the rigors or college life, school work, and performing week in and week out on the field. Coach Saban and staff are the best in the business at evaluating talent and developing talent.

bamaslammer · Dec 23, 2015

To expound upon my Ole Miss example, in 2013 they signed the top rated WR Laquon Treadwell, OL Laremy Tunsil and DL Robert Nkemdiche. plus one of the nations best corners Tony Conner, a player we badly wanted and needed. As long as I've followed recruiting I've never seen one school sign a haul like that on the top end. not even USC has done that. (how they did it is a discussion the NCAA is probably still having to this day).

Though I don't recall Treadwell or Conner getting into trouble Tunsil and Nkemdiche have had their issues. but beyond issues they all started for three years. In the last two of those years they did what they were brought there to do, they took down Alabama. But in all cases they could not finish the season. Why is that? This was not a case of Alabama taking Ole Miss lightly, in both the 14 & 15 seasons it was a big game and Alabama knew it and came up short both times. Yet the same guys who accomplished unprecedented success against Alabama lost to Memphis just a few weeks later and eventually several more times to fall out of playoff contention. Those guys didn't have the grit that it takes to finish. Nor were they ever challenged in a way to develop that sort of grit. There is no short cut to some things in life.

RTR91 · Dec 23, 2015

bamaslammer said:
To expound upon my Ole Miss example, in 2013 they signed the top rated WR Laquon Treadwell, OL Laremy Tunsil and DL Robert Nkemdiche. plus one of the nations best corners Tony Conner, a player we badly wanted and needed. As long as I've followed recruiting I've never seen one school sign a haul like that on the top end. not even USC has done that. (how they did it is a discussion the NCAA is probably still having to this day).

Though I don't recall Treadwell or Conner getting into trouble Tunsil and Nkemdiche have had their issues. but beyond issues they all started for three years. In the last two of those years they did what they were brought there to do, they took down Alabama. But in all cases they could not finish the season. Why is that? This was not a case of Alabama taking Ole Miss lightly, in both the 14 & 15 seasons it was a big game and Alabama knew it and came up short both times. Yet the same guys who accomplished unprecedented success against Alabama lost to Memphis just a few weeks later and eventually several more times to fall out of playoff contention. Those guys didn't have the grit that it takes to finish. Nor were they ever challenged in a way to develop that sort of grit. There is no short cut to some things in life.

The fact Alabama really, really wanted Tunsil and Conner tell me Saban liked what he saw in both players (on and off the field). If we are going to trust his judgment, he clearly saw in those two what he saw in the Bama players you mentioned in your OP.

Treadwell got hurt last year on what should have been the game winning TD.

Conner was injured the week prior to Alabama and hasn't played since. Freeze says he should play in the bowl game.

Tunsil and Nkemdiche have been in the news for their off the field issues this year.

I'm not really sure you can point to those four players as disappointments or guys that - as you said - don't have the "grit that it takes to finish." The issue with Ole Miss comes from coaching and a lack of overall depth. It's fantastic that Hugh signed those four players in 2013. What else did he sign? It takes more than just a few 5* players to win.

CrimsonEyeshade · Dec 23, 2015

Slammer, If I'm wrong about where you're going with this, please tell me. But let's not make this a character debate.

You just named 4 kids who have played extraordinarily well for Ole Miss, clearly living up to their billings. Why did they lose after beating us?

1. Most teams do -- whether it's a natural letdown or we beat them bloody.
2. Maybe it's a lack of depth -- it takes 22, not 4.
3. Maybe it's coaching.
4. Or, maybe as you say, it's a lack of grit and other intangibles.

We can't say -- just as we can't say why we played our poorest games of the year in consecutive seasons against the same team.

We know our coach says this team has grit. It also benefits from the best talent in college football -- which has been stacking up for almost a decade.
We still lose games. Best coaches and players, and we still lose games, and we haven't "finished" a season in three years.

Is that a character flaw or coaching mistakes? A lack of grit?

Lots of partial explanations lead to the same place: This game is hard, and nobody wins all the time.

bamaslammer said:
To expound upon my Ole Miss example, in 2013 they signed the top rated WR Laquon Treadwell, OL Laremy Tunsil and DL Robert Nkemdiche. plus one of the nations best corners Tony Conner, a player we badly wanted and needed. As long as I've followed recruiting I've never seen one school sign a haul like that on the top end. not even USC has done that. (how they did it is a discussion the NCAA is probably still having to this day).

Though I don't recall Treadwell or Conner getting into trouble Tunsil and Nkemdiche have had their issues. but beyond issues they all started for three years. In the last two of those years they did what they were brought there to do, they took down Alabama. But in all cases they could not finish the season. Why is that? This was not a case of Alabama taking Ole Miss lightly, in both the 14 & 15 seasons it was a big game and Alabama knew it and came up short both times. Yet the same guys who accomplished unprecedented success against Alabama lost to Memphis just a few weeks later and eventually several more times to fall out of playoff contention. Those guys didn't have the grit that it takes to finish. Nor were they ever challenged in a way to develop that sort of grit. There is no short cut to some things in life.

Tug Tide · Dec 23, 2015

After the injury to Treadwell last year, I'd say that young man is made of grit

imauafan · Dec 24, 2015

As others have said it takes more than one great recruiting class to make a championship team. In addition to great recruiting you also need quality coaching, leadership from key players, and some good luck. A key injury can kill a teams shot at a championship or an unlucky bounce of the football in a tight game. Related to leadership but not exactly the same is overall team chemistry. Another factor is a team getting hot at the right time (e.g. OSU last year). Having the right matchup in the championship game. A lot of things have to come together to have a championship team. I was frustrated with the 2010 and 2013 teams but looking at it objectively those teams were victims of 2 or more factors that I mentioned. The 2010 team was loaded with talent but had a lot of critical injuries. The 2013 team had issues with leadership and overall team chemistry.

Braveheart · Dec 24, 2015

bamaslammer said:
To expound upon my Ole Miss example, in 2013 they signed the top rated WR Laquon Treadwell, OL Laremy Tunsil and DL Robert Nkemdiche. plus one of the nations best corners Tony Conner, a player we badly wanted and needed. As long as I've followed recruiting I've never seen one school sign a haul like that on the top end. not even USC has done that. (how they did it is a discussion the NCAA is probably still having to this day).

Though I don't recall Treadwell or Conner getting into trouble Tunsil and Nkemdiche have had their issues. but beyond issues they all started for three years. In the last two of those years they did what they were brought there to do, they took down Alabama. But in all cases they could not finish the season. Why is that? This was not a case of Alabama taking Ole Miss lightly, in both the 14 & 15 seasons it was a big game and Alabama knew it and came up short both times. Yet the same guys who accomplished unprecedented success against Alabama lost to Memphis just a few weeks later and eventually several more times to fall out of playoff contention. Those guys didn't have the grit that it takes to finish. Nor were they ever challenged in a way to develop that sort of grit. There is no short cut to some things in life.

Sorry, but this is just not true. Yes, that was a really good recruiting class but I'd say Bama has done better than the Rebs every year.

While I love an over achiever as much as anyone, most of those guys you list were not 5' 7" 140 lb walk ons with no offers. Almost all of them were 4 or 5 star players. Jarran Reed for example was very highly regarded, he was originally a Florida recruit but didn't make the grades and ended up at JUCO. To say he wasn't on the radar of a lot of coaches simply isn't true.

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