Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Briles Fired, AD and Starr Resigns)

Redwood Forrest

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I'm fine with giving Baylor the death penalty but opposed to any revocation of accreditation. Too many quality professors who had nothing to do with that.


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I agree with you, Prof. Shut the sports team down with a death penalty. Prosecute the admin and coaches who covered up criminal behavior, and students too, if there were any. As the Soup Nazi would say, "no more sports for you."
 

B1GTide

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I'm fine with giving Baylor the death penalty but opposed to any revocation of accreditation. Too many quality professors who had nothing to do with that.
Companies that are caught breaking the law are shut down every year. In every case there are innocent people put out of work. Frankly, if a professor still wants to work at Baylor after this, I wouldn't waste my sympathy on them. Anyone worth a spit started looking for different employment as soon as this became public.

Integrity - you either have it or you don't. People with integrity would want nothing to do with a school like Baylor or Penn State.
 

CullmanTide

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Well, you've persuaded me. I originally thought the two instances were pretty much parallel on NCAA vs. criminal / civil. But you're right.

Whereas Penn State didn't get an on-field benefit from Sandusky's crimes, Baylor did generate a competitive advantage by covering up felonies committed by players.

My position is changed, and I now believe Baylor's crimes are both NCAA violations (impermissible benefits / competitive advantage) and criminal / civil (covering up sexual assaults and related offenses -- which I still do believe are the exclusive purview of the courts).

Thanks for making me think.
To think State Penn didn't get an on the field benefit is wrong. Their coverup allowed them to keep their enabling coach and allowed them to continue recruiting as if nothing was going on.
 

TrampLineman

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No joke! While I'm not trying to downplay the stuff at Baylor, Pedophile State did much more sick things than Briles and Baylor did. But I'm not downplaying Baylor and those women one bit, Baylor should be shutdown just like Pedophile State should be.
 

CrimsonProf

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Companies that are caught breaking the law are shut down every year. In every case there are innocent people put out of work. Frankly, if a professor still wants to work at Baylor after this, I wouldn't waste my sympathy on them. Anyone worth a spit started looking for different employment as soon as this became public.

Integrity - you either have it or you don't. People with integrity would want nothing to do with a school like Baylor or Penn State.
I'm not going to argue the point because we've both got entrenched positions. I'll say life is not as simple as you're suggesting, and I don't think an English professor should have to go down with Art Briles.


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B1GTide

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I'm not going to argue the point because we've both got entrenched positions. I'll say life is not as simple as you're suggesting, and I don't think an English professor should have to go down with Art Briles.


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This is essentially the "too big to fail" argument - too big to be allowed to fail. The harsh reality is that if we don't take this kind of drastic action, nothing will change. Saying that these schools have to remain open to protect the professors amounts to saying that the professor's jobs are more important than taking action that might actually change this culture. If everyone associated with a school knows that the school might be shut down if this sort of thing happens, how likely are we to see it again? Lots of people at Baylor knew about this. They all stayed quiet to protect themselves. Someone would have come forward if this kind of sword hung over their heads.
 

LA4Bama

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This is essentially the "too big to fail" argument - too big to be allowed to fail. The harsh reality is that if we don't take this kind of drastic action, nothing will change. Saying that these schools have to remain open to protect the professors amounts to saying that the professor's jobs are more important than taking action that might actually change this culture. If everyone associated with a school knows that the school might be shut down if this sort of thing happens, how likely are we to see it again? Lots of people at Baylor knew about this. They all stayed quiet to protect themselves. Someone would have come forward if this kind of sword hung over their heads.
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BradtheImpaler

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This is essentially the "too big to fail" argument - too big to be allowed to fail. The harsh reality is that if we don't take this kind of drastic action, nothing will change. Saying that these schools have to remain open to protect the professors amounts to saying that the professor's jobs are more important than taking action that might actually change this culture. If everyone associated with a school knows that the school might be shut down if this sort of thing happens, how likely are we to see it again? Lots of people at Baylor knew about this. They all stayed quiet to protect themselves. Someone would have come forward if this kind of sword hung over their heads.
Fair enough, but by giving the school the death penalty athletically, you are saying that this is not going to be allowed to continue, because you are cutting out the cancer that allowed it to happen. By yanking the school's accreditation, you are basically getting rid of the cancer by killing the patient.
 

Displaced Bama Fan

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Fair enough, but by giving the school the death penalty athletically, you are saying that this is not going to be allowed to continue, because you are cutting out the cancer that allowed it to happen. By yanking the school's accreditation, you are basically getting rid of the cancer by killing the patient.
Sometimes you have to kill the host so the infectious disease doesn't spread.
 

RTR91

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Fair enough, but by giving the school the death penalty athletically, you are saying that this is not going to be allowed to continue, because you are cutting out the cancer that allowed it to happen. By yanking the school's accreditation, you are basically getting rid of the cancer by killing the patient.
This is a fantastic analogy.


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B1GTide

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This is just rhetoric.


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No, if you accept the analogy, it is taking it one step further. I understand why some might disagree with my stance. I am not even sure if it is necessary. Maybe there is some step short of this that will work. But consider this - these things continued to happen at Baylor even after PSU got hammered for their offense. Football penalties may not be enough to stop this kind of depravity. So maybe shutting down the school is too much. A football probation is clearly not enough. So how far do we go?
 

dtgreg

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No, if you accept the analogy, it is taking it one step further. I understand why some might disagree with my stance. I am not even sure if it is necessary. Maybe there is some step short of this that will work. But consider this - these things continued to happen at Baylor even after PSU got hammered for their offense. Football penalties may not be enough to stop this kind of depravity. So maybe shutting down the school is too much. A football probation is clearly not enough. So how far do we go?
No bankers from HSBC were jailed for proven money-laundering of drug cartels' funds. None were jailed. Hundreds of millions of dollars. From cartels that routinely employ torture, murder, etc. When you begin jailing uppermiddle to upperclass people for committing crimes (in Baylor's case, abetting and covering up multiple gang rapes, and in PSU abetting and covering for serial child rape) you will begin to see people balk at these cover-ups.
 

crimsonaudio

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Kill the football program, celebrate the educational aspect. Make it clear that if this sort of behavior is in any way supported by the university in the future the whole thing goes away.

Killing a university over a few idiots appears to be vindictive and short-sighted.
 

B1GTide

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Kill the football program, celebrate the educational aspect. Make it clear that if this sort of behavior is in any way supported by the university in the future the whole thing goes away.

Killing a university over a few idiots appears to be vindictive and short-sighted.
If you totally kill the football program it might work. The steps taken at PSU were clearly not sufficient. But the reality is that they will likely do less than they did to PSU since they ended up letting PSU off the hook early.
 

BamaInMo1

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I'm not sure how much power the NZAA has when it comes to these matters (hence why the PSU thing went away so quickly). This seems to be more a criminal matter. Now, I agree that a very strong message should be sent in cases like this. Depending on who all knew about this, the university as a whole should possibly incur stiff punishment of some sort. I just don't think that shutting down the whole university is the answer. There are a lot of professors and students who were not involved (and who knows at his point, they may have gone to the administration and said something but the powers that be may have just simply told them to shut up) and to punish them would be criminal in and of itself (in my opinion).
 

crimsonaudio

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If you totally kill the football program it might work. The steps taken at PSU were clearly not sufficient. But the reality is that they will likely do less than they did to PSU since they ended up letting PSU off the hook early.
I'm suggesting the school actually do it. I know they won't, but honestly, a school that's supposedly about what they claim should be willing to go to somewhat drastic lengths to show they are above board and unwilling to compromise about their principles.

But sadly, the money will win out, like it always does.

In the end, I'll just have another name to add to my personal list of revolting universities.
 

4Q Basket Case

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I'm suggesting the school actually do it. I know they won't, but honestly, a school that's supposedly about what they claim should be willing to go to somewhat drastic lengths to show they are above board and unwilling to compromise about their principles.

But sadly, the money will win out, like it always does.

In the end, I'll just have another name to add to my personal list of revolting universities.
I agree that Baylor should kill the sports on their own. But Baylor's leadership and donors long ago proved themselves to be total hyoocrites on this.

And really, I don't think it's about money so much as it is about winning and the feeling of power they get from that.

The money is nice. But I think the rush of winning when your history is more doormat than champion is the driving factor.
 

crimsonaudio

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I agree that Baylor should kill the sports on their own. But Baylor's leadership and donors long ago proved themselves to be total hyoocrites on this.

And really, I don't think it's about money so much as it is about winning and the feeling of power they get from that.

The money is nice. But I think the rush of winning when your history is more doormat than champion is the driving factor.
I guarantee Baylor's football program funds just about every other sport on campus (and possibly funds some academic scholarships, like at Bama) - they are in the top 25 in annual AD income (over $100 million/year).

Maybe it's about winning, but I think the mighty dollar is talking here. If football goes away, a vast majority of that cash goes away with it.
 

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