Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Briles Fired, AD and Starr Resigns)

teamplayer

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

Careful...I asked the same question when the PSU stuff was happening, and a lot of people here (not all, but a decided majority) thought I was being light on child molestation.

I felt then, and still feel, that PSU's wrongdoings were for the civil and criminal courts to punish in the severest manner possible. But that doesn't make it an NCAA question. Same thing with Baylor and Briles, and whoever else might be found to have covered up criminal acts.

You and I agree. But many here don't, and want to see the bad guys punished however and by whomever possible.

From what's come out in the news, I think Baylor might be financially crippled by civil judgments, and a few individuals might end up in prison. And I would view that as a just outcome. But I don't see it as an NCAA question, and the precedent set by their actions against PSU chilled me.
The same thing happened to me when the PSU allegations surfaced. I thought the courts should handle the situation because it was much bigger than a stupid game. If the allegations were true, I hoped the man was imprisoned and put in general population for "justice" to occur. However, there were a few people here who explained that they also wanted the courts to handle the bigger situation, but they also wanted the NCAA to handle the lack of institutional control situation. That made sense to me because I am a firm believer in education and doing things correctly. If the PSU or Baylor situations demonstrated that the universities had lost control of programs that were supposed to represent the universities, then the NCAA should also punish those programs for years to come. Those posters made a good case and won me over. Now, however, so many people like to talk about the wrong people being punished. The programs should be punished. If a person chooses to be a part of that program in the time period when it is being punished, then they would also bear the burden of the punishment for a while. In these two situations, I believe the PSU football program should have been hammered, and it looks like the Baylor football program should also be hammered. The universities of higher learning allowed illegal activities to continue just to protect glory on a field.
 

barrytide

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

I believe they are keeping the staff around just for this season and then do the ultimate clean sweep.
I would hope that that includes the administrators of the school as well. If they could prove that anyone covered up players violent crimes......well they ought to Sandusky them.
 

JDMinHSV

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

I dunno . . . lack of institutional control maybe?

I've seen this thought process around many places. It's not going to happen, though. The NCAA had to take back the PSU punishment after the courts said it had no jurisdiction.

What NCAA rule did Baylor break?
 

KentuckianaBFan

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

I always wonder what "lack of institutional control" means. Is it defined? It would seem that if the football coaches or athletic department undermined ordinary university practices or broke the law to benefit the football team, there's an argument that the institution has lost control.
I'm asking a question--is "institutional control" the action of insuring that NCAA rules and regulations are adhered to? That is, "lack of institutional control" would occur if an institution knowingly allowed NCAA-specific rules /regulations to be broken, and take no action...in other words, a specific rule/reg would have to be violated, and then ignored by those in the institution. Don't know if this is correct, just my impression. Is covering up or impeding the investigation of a felony a violation of an NCAA rule?
 

KentuckianaBFan

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

Could be, but the NCAA would not allow you to have one student code of conduct for students and another for athletes. That's essentially what they had. Unlike the Penn State case, where it was a coach doing something unrelated to football, here you have players receiving extra benefits through the organized, deliberate actions of the staff. I don't think it's like Penn State.

"Extra benefits" could be the key to the NCAA's involvement, but I'm not holding my breath that they will even get involved...and don't get me wrong--I think that those guilty of ignoring/covering up should be visited by consequences of Biblical proportions...as for Title IX, I think (I could be wrong) that the only thing that the Dept of Education can do is withhold Fed funding...from what I have read the Waco PD had their chance and didn't do anything...don't know if the Feds have a reason to intervene...:mad:
 

RTR91

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

From the NCAA website:

The term "institutional control" sounds ominous, perhaps because it is the core of the expression that is at the core of the worst of NCAA violations: "lack of institutional control."

But institutional control itself is a good and essential concept that links varsity athletics programs with higher education. Without it, any college athletics program is not much more than a bunch of kids playing games.

The concept of institutional control is at the center of the Model Division II Athletics Department document developed several years ago by the Division II Athletics Directors Association. That model, which is included in this chapter, has been revised several times over the years, but the core message has remained the same: Any athletics program must reflect the ideals of the institution it represents, and it is up to the athletics director to constantly inform the president (or the person to whom the athletics director reports) of all relevant developments within the program.

As you prepare to pursue a career as an athletics director, you must seriously consider this important responsibility. The president of the institution is ultimately responsible for the integrity of the institution, and that includes compliance with NCAA rules. If you are not comfortable delivering potentially bad news to your boss, then perhaps being an athletics director is not the best career for you.

In fact, things will go wrong at times, often in ways that are routine or understandable. That's why the NCAA has a secondary violation process that encourages the athletics leadership of each institution to monitor and report small problems before they become big ones. As far as the NCAA is concerned, that vigilance regarded as a sign of a well-monitored athletics program. A program without secondary violations might be considered one that is willing to sweep problems under the rug.

In addition to building trusting relationships with institutional leaders, athletics directors must understand and value the role of the faculty athletics representative, who plays a primary role in ensuring student-athlete welfare, especially with regard to academics. The athletics director also should be involved in the formation and oversight of an effective athletics advisory board, which can provide valuable counsel if administered properly.
Now, the NCAA could possibly do as BiB suggests and say Baylor had a separate code of conduct for male athletes, but I don't see any other way to punish them. Until the NCAA (primarily the P5) create an uniform punishment policy, the NCAA will most likely stay out of this after being embarrassed in the courts by the Paterno family and Penn State.
 

GP for Bama

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

So many schools think they can cover up sexual assault, and that it is now big deal. It goes back to FSU and Winston being so flagrant about it....and no penalties. At least Baylor had some integrity to finally do something about it. The FSU administration, athletic department, Tallahassee PD, and Winston are all sorry and slimey.
 

KentuckianaBFan

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

So many schools think they can cover up sexual assault, and that it is now big deal. It goes back to FSU and Winston being so flagrant about it....and no penalties. At least Baylor had some integrity to finally do something about it. The FSU administration, athletic department, Tallahassee PD, and Winston are all sorry and slimey.


I'm not sure that "integrity" is driving Baylor in this...maybe more of a CYA move?
 

RTR91

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

How Art Briles' philosophy led to his dismissal


In an interview with ESPN.com in March 2014, for example, Briles spoke proudly about his coaching staff's track record with transfers. They'd sent defensive tackle Phil Taylor, a Penn State transfer, to the NFL. Oregon import Lache Seastrunk was their star running back. Shawn Oakman was about to become a starter.

"I think we do a good job of nurturing and giving these guys a chance to get their feet on the ground and start over," Briles said. "We're very nonjudgmental."

Embracing those players who needed a fresh start to unlock their talent was important to Briles on a philosophical level.

"I've always thought the best of people until they prove me wrong," Briles said. "For somebody that hasn't made a mistake that's on this earth, I'd like to meet him. We're all a work in progress and all where we're at because somebody believed in us and gave us an opportunity. Just because somebody is wrong yesterday doesn't mean they're wrong today. You try to help people move on."
 

bamamc1

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

I have a 3rd grade daughter and know how I would react if this happened to her. You would think with Briles having daughters, he would have never let this go on.
 

Gr8hope

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

If NCAA rules do not include one that prohibits covering up for crimes, especially violent crimes, in order to maintain a winning effort in sports, then it is even more inefficient than I thought.
 

CrimsonNagus

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

Every time I hear the pea-brained 'anybody who hasn't made a mistake' argument, I seriously want some reporter with a brain to point out there's a difference between a MISTAKE and a FELONY.
Hmm... I, and a few others, tried to make the same point in another thread recently and got blasted. Just saying. :wink:

I believe they are keeping the staff around just for this season and then do the ultimate clean sweep.
So, once again, football is king. This season should be the least of their concerns but, gotta win, right.
 

KrAzY3

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

Every time I hear the pea-brained 'anybody who hasn't made a mistake' argument, I seriously want some reporter with a brain to point out there's a difference between a MISTAKE and a FELONY.
I think I agree with your general sentiments, I mean I do say the "made a mistake" thing but I never speak of it in terms of rape, murder, anything of that severity. There's one thing to have poor judgement, even really poor judgement (smoking pot in a public place with an unlicensed gun would be one example) but poor judgement doesn't extend to the whole and then I held her down and forced her to do something against her will thing. I don't think you can include deliberately doing serious harm to another human being as a "mistake", unless there were mitigating circumstances. They don't deserve that excuse.

I'll never agree with anything that says "they paid their price to society" or any of that king of talk either. Really? They unraped her? I don't think so.
 

4Q Basket Case

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

Several here have posted that coaches impeding the investigation of multiple allegations of felonies could be construed as "LOIC" or "extra benefits," and therefore come under the jurisdiction of the NCAA.

That's exactly the slippery slope that scares me to death. From there, it's not much more of a reach to have the NCAA sticking its nose into the operations of the University. After all, a professor "doing" a student is patent LOIC. Even if it doesn't involve an athlete this time, it might next.

I simply don't want those finger-in-the-wind wimps standing as judge, jury, and executioner over internal University decisions.

If the decision-makers mess up badly enough (and PSU and Baylor certainly did), there are civil and criminal courts to address it. They will, and the right people and institutions will be appropriately punished.

Given our hard experience with his predecessors, I just don't want Mark Emmert or any successor to have any more power than they already have...power which they alternately abuse or sit on, depending on the external exigencies of the moment.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

Let me tell you what this conversation is starting to remind me of: steroids in baseball.

Time after time after time I've heard this justification for the Steroid Era: "Well, it wasn't against the rules of baseball." Well, duh, there was no reason to write this into the rules by virtue of the fact they were ALREADY ILLEGAL!!! I mean, there's nothing in the rules spelled out against MURDER, either, because it's unnecessary.

Nobody, including the NZAA, should have to spell out "sexual assaults will get you fired" because it's already against the law.

This does not take a Mensa scholar to understand, folks.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

When Kobe Bryant committed adultery in Colorado way back yonder, that was a mistake. I'll categorize it that way, although I suspect he did it enough that it was a pattern of behavior as opposed to an isolated incident.

When it became a rape charge, it ceased to fall under the rubric of 'mistake' and became (potentially) a crime.


It's possible to get too rigid, of course; DUI/DWI is a crime but it may also be viewed as a mistake......guy who drinks thinks he's better off than he really is and gets pulled over. Going to a party and succumbing to the temptation to smoke a joint and then testing positive for MJ might be viewed as a mistake.

But we're talking whole other category here with Penn State and Baylor.
 

teamplayer

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Re: Baylor needs to hire some good lawyers (Update: Art Briles fired)

Let me tell you what this conversation is starting to remind me of: steroids in baseball.

Time after time after time I've heard this justification for the Steroid Era: "Well, it wasn't against the rules of baseball." Well, duh, there was no reason to write this into the rules by virtue of the fact they were ALREADY ILLEGAL!!! I mean, there's nothing in the rules spelled out against MURDER, either, because it's unnecessary.

Nobody, including the NZAA, should have to spell out "sexual assaults will get you fired" because it's already against the law.

This does not take a Mensa scholar to understand, folks.
I've made this argument many times, but people get stubborn in support of their sports "heroes".
 

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