So the Pope and Donald Trump are having a spat

selmaborntidefan

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Peter had answered the question by Jesus that was, who do you say I am. Peter replied that Jesus was the Son of the living God. I think that fact of who Jesus was, that was to be the rock the Church was to be built on.

You may be correct but my suspicion is that this interpretation really became popular post-Reformation and is the way so many folks (no attack intended towards you my friend) try to get out of problem texts when it comes to religion/Christianity. I personally have no problem with the notion being that Peter is the rock. I think non-Catholics are wrong in looking for some ways to get around Catholicism's teaching of the pope, and I also think Catholicism distorts the meaning as well. Keep in mind that in those systems you have two different means of authority - one deriving from individual interpretation of the Bible and the other arising from the assumption that God left us an infallible interpreter of the Bible.

No person reading without presuppositions or trying to get out of it would read this as Catholics and as many Protestants do. Even the Catholic has to run his theology through the filter of assuming the Magisterium is infallible (we'll set aside the obvious problem that even if we assume that, the claim has little merit since many religious bodies claim infallibility and.....more importantly.......even having an infallible interpreter(s) doesn't change the fact the choice of whom to believe is still a fallible choice).

I'm not saying anybody is wrong here, I'm just saying I think there's too much baggage here that folks are trying to disarm their opponents with that it makes the Scripture a tool for argument and not a guide for life.
 

Highway59

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You may be correct but my suspicion is that this interpretation really became popular post-Reformation and is the way so many folks (no attack intended towards you my friend) try to get out of problem texts when it comes to religion/Christianity. I personally have no problem with the notion being that Peter is the rock. I think non-Catholics are wrong in looking for some ways to get around Catholicism's teaching of the pope, and I also think Catholicism distorts the meaning as well. Keep in mind that in those systems you have two different means of authority - one deriving from individual interpretation of the Bible and the other arising from the assumption that God left us an infallible interpreter of the Bible.

No person reading without presuppositions or trying to get out of it would read this as Catholics and as many Protestants do. Even the Catholic has to run his theology through the filter of assuming the Magisterium is infallible (we'll set aside the obvious problem that even if we assume that, the claim has little merit since many religious bodies claim infallibility and.....more importantly.......even having an infallible interpreter(s) doesn't change the fact the choice of whom to believe is still a fallible choice).

I'm not saying anybody is wrong here, I'm just saying I think there's too much baggage here that folks are trying to disarm their opponents with that it makes the Scripture a tool for argument and not a guide for life.

Certainly not taken as that. :) No, I,m absolutely not a Biblical scholar, just the way I have always heard that scripture explained in Church. As I read it for myself without narrative from someone else, thats what I get out of it also...
 

Al A Bama

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So the Pope says building a wall to keep people out is 'not Christian', but he lives here?

Maybe we need to build a wall like the Pope's. Maybe that would secure our Southern border. Maybe the Pope should help us fund that wall. In turn, we will protect the Vatican from ISIS.
 

selmaborntidefan

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Celibacy was optional in the early Church. There have been as many as 39 married popes. Some popes were sons of popes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes#Popes_who_were_married

Please, a bit more respect for some of our Catholic brethren may be in order here.
Actually, you just pointed out the problem a lot of us have with that particular church - you'd think an infallible Magisterium wouldn't be changing the rules (e.g. they'd get it right the first time). Trying to argue "well, celibacy wasn't always the rule" (which every Catholic I've ever engaged on the issue of celibacy runs to) doesn't change the fact that at one time A was the rule and now anti-A is the rule. Even saying this is a 'practice and not a doctrine' is meaningless unless a married guy can be pope nowadays. If he can't, you have MADE IT A DOCTRINE BY YOUR PRACTICE regardless of whether it is written in doctrinal stone.
 

Jon

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Actually, you just pointed out the problem a lot of us have with that particular church - you'd think an infallible Magisterium wouldn't be changing the rules (e.g. they'd get it right the first time). Trying to argue "well, celibacy wasn't always the rule" (which every Catholic I've ever engaged on the issue of celibacy runs to) doesn't change the fact that at one time A was the rule and now anti-A is the rule. Even saying this is a 'practice and not a doctrine' is meaningless unless a married guy can be pope nowadays. If he can't, you have MADE IT A DOCTRINE BY YOUR PRACTICE regardless of whether it is written in doctrinal stone.
Celibacy is the rule because the church doesn't want to pay for its priests to breed like they want their parishioners to, that was a financial decision with ecclesiastical window dressing.

Can you imagine the cost outlay if most priests had 5-6 kids? Its insane
 

Displaced Bama Fan

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Celibacy is the rule because the church doesn't want to pay for its priests to breed like they want their parishioners to, that was a financial decision with ecclesiastical window dressing.

Can you imagine the cost outlay if most priests had 5-6 kids? Its insane
The Catholic Church is the wealthiest corporation in the world. Oops, did I say that? Why would they want to spend their wealth on a bunch of priests kids?
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
So the Pope says building a wall to keep people out is 'not Christian', but he lives here?

Not really equivalent.

Yes, there are walls around the Vatican. Built 1200 years ago to keep those silly barbarians from sacking the city. In this day and age the doors are always open. Want to see St. Peter's square? Aside from going through metal detector, they'll let you stroll right in.
 

92tide

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Not really equivalent.

Yes, there are walls around the Vatican. Built 1200 years ago to keep those silly barbarians from sacking the city. In this day and age the doors are always open. Want to see St. Peter's square? Aside from going through metal detector, they'll let you stroll right in.
i just hope we don't have to watch trump shave off his eyebrows and nipples

 

bama_wayne1

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Not really equivalent.

Yes, there are walls around the Vatican. Built 1200 years ago to keep those silly barbarians from sacking the city. In this day and age the doors are always open. Want to see St. Peter's square? Aside from going through metal detector, they'll let you stroll right in.
It's equivalent unless they'll let you set up housekeeping and take a job.
 

AUDub

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Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
It's equivalent unless they'll let you set up housekeeping and take a job.
You realize we're talking about a state one-sixth of a square mile in size, smack dab in the middle of Rome and occupied by the largest organization on earth, right? Traditional conventions regarding immigration don't really apply here. To his credit, His Holiness does want to accept refugees, but it's not like there's a lot of leg room, so to speak.
 

bama_wayne1

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You realize we're talking about a state one-sixth of a square mile in size, smack dab in the middle of Rome and occupied by the largest organization on earth, right? Traditional conventions regarding immigration don't really apply here. To his credit, His Holiness does want to accept refugees, but it's not like there's a lot of leg room, so to speak.
Since they are so open as you point out, they should tear down the wall....or stay out of conversations involving a wall here.
 

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