Hillary's Abortion Comment Angers Both Sides

ValuJet

Moderator
Sep 28, 2000
22,626
19
0
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/apr/3/hillary-clinton-unborn-person-has-no-constitutiona/

Democratic primary front-runner Hillary Clinton ran afoul of both the pro-life and pro-choice sides of the abortion debate Sunday when she said constitutional rights do not apply to an “unborn person” or “child.”

“The unborn person doesn’t have constitutional rights,” Mrs. Clinton said on NBC’s “Meet the Press.” “Now that doesn’t mean that we don’t do everything we possibly can in the vast majority of instances to, you know, help a mother who is carrying a child and wants to make sure that child will be healthy, to have appropriate medical support.”

Describing the fetus as a “person” or “child” has long been anathema to the pro-choice movement, which argues the terms misleadingly imply a sense of humanity.

In addition, the specific term “person” is a legal concept that includes rights and statuses that the law protects, including protection of a person’s life under the laws against homicide. Pro-choice intellectuals have long said that even if an unborn child is a “life,” it is not yet a “person.”

Guidelines issued by the International Planned Parenthood Federation discourage pro-choice advocates from using terms such as “abort a child,” instead recommending “more accurate/appropriate” alternatives such as “end a pregnancy” or “have an abortion.”

“‘Abort a child’ is medically inaccurate, as the fetus is not yet a child,” the guide reads. “‘Terminate’ a pregnancy is commonly used, however some people prefer to avoid this as terminate may have negative connotations (e.g., ‘terminator or assassinate’) for some people.”

The guidebook also advises against the terms “baby,” “dead fetus,” “unborn baby” or “unborn child” when discussing what it is that’s being aborted. Instead, it recommends the terms “embryo,” “fetus” and “the pregnancy.”


Certainly we do not need another abortion thread. This topic is more focused at Hillary's gaffe and how it compares to Trump's recent snafu with Chris Matthews.

Did she get the semantics - the Planned Parenthood talking points - wrong?
 

mikes12

All-American
Nov 10, 2005
3,548
0
0
49
Chattanooga, TN
I remember Obama's "above my pay grade" dodge back in '08. At the time I thought it was stupid, since he was basically applying for a position with a higher pay grade. But in retrospect with all the current hubbub, I guess it was a pretty savvy answer.

Of course, it was a lot easier when the media didn't want to grill him.
 

selmaborntidefan

TideFans Legend
Mar 31, 2000
36,432
29,736
287
54
An impartial press would ask her if since she's now declared it a "child," should it not be called "murder." I mean, that was exactly Mathews's point the other day.
 

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
22,481
13,328
287
Hooterville, Vir.
"Persons who had been imported as slaves nor their descendants, [have] no rights which the white man was bound to respect." Justice Roger Taney, 1857
 

uafan4life

Hall of Fame
Mar 30, 2001
15,615
7,449
287
43
Florence, AL
This crap is why I have a two-pronged, or perhaps three-pronged, seemingly paradoxical argument regarding abortion and/or "unwanted pregnancy" legislation. You see, to me, there are actually three aspects to this argument which should be considered: moral, ethical, and logical.


Moral:
I believe that abortion in cases where it is not a medical emergency but rather a matter of convenience is abhorrent and sinful.

However, I also believe that no legislation should be enacted by the Federal Government based purely upon moral grounds so this is, in many respects, a moot point when it comes to abortion legislation.


Ethical:
I believe that abortion in cases where it is not a medical emergency but rather a matter of convenience is unethical because it knowingly denies the imminent opportunity for life. I use the phrase "imminent opportunity for life" very intentionally because I don't give a whit when - from any perspective or definition - "life" actually begins. Once you start quibbling over definitions, you've pretty much lost both the moral and ethical high ground, anyway. I believe that a person's right to life - at the very least from an ethical perspective - should retroactively extend to include their time in the womb from the point the pregnancy became viable. Once a mother knows that - barring any unforeseen circumstances and/or intervention on her part - the most likely, natural, end result of the on-going process will be a human life then her responsibility as a human is to protect that future person's imminent opportunity for life. Note: it should be obvious that this stance does not extend back to conception, much less prior to conception, so it does not include prevention of conception, i.e. birth control; prevention of successful implantation, e.g. the morning-after pill; nor acts that may unknowingly, prematurely end a pregnancy.

So, from a purely ethical perspective, the very least that we should do as a human society is to ensure equal if not greater emphasis on the protection as opposed to the denial of any future person's imminent opportunity for life - if not pursue legislation to ensure such protection. So, if we are going to legislate and/or spend money to operate social programs and/or advertisement, including the dissemination of information, regarding abortion then equal - if not greater - emphasis and support should be given in such things toward alternatives to abortion, especially adoption. Also, the adoption process needs to transition from being a difficult, expensive process to more of a typical, everyday occurrence.

Personally, I would even have few qualms with offering a contractual, financial incentive - yes, a "payment" in laymen's terms - for women who are considering having an abortion to instead carry to term for the purposes of adoption.


Logical:
I believe that abortion in cases where it is not a medical emergency but rather a matter of convenience is going to occur, in significant numbers, regardless of whether such abortions are legal and how much support and information is disseminated regarding alternatives for such abortions. I also believe, with significant historical evidence to back up the belief, that the net result of making such abortions illegal is a much greater medical, mental, and emotional risk for women will inevitably pursue them as well as an added strain on the healthcare system.

So, from a purely logical perspective, it doesn't make sense to pursue legislation making such abortions illegal.




By looking at the issue in this way, to me, three things are evident:
1. The question of whether or not such abortions should be made illegal needs to go away, as it really is functionally a moot point.
2. The adoption process needs help - from both a legal and informational perspective - to become considered as the "first option" for unwanted pregnancies.
3. Social programs providing information, support, and even aid regarding unwanted pregnancies, such as Planned Parenthood, can be beneficial if not necessary but need to be overhauled in order to place a much greater emphasis on the protection as opposed to the denial of any future person's imminent opportunity for life.
 

uafan4life

Hall of Fame
Mar 30, 2001
15,615
7,449
287
43
Florence, AL
Don't think you can make the logical argument without a moral addendum. Otherwise, all things should be legal, since anything illegal will happen anyway, often at great cost to society. Moreover, if legal abortions results in a million abortions and illegal abortions result in 500,000, or 750,000, or 999,999, why is it not worth it to ban them? You are inherently making a moral determination--that the "medical, mental, and emotional risk for women" is something to be considered in the balance--so I don't think you can classify it as purely logical. Logic, in my view, either leads to great restriction on abortion or infanticide, depending on which path you take.

I was referring to these perspectives solely in terms of evaluating the pursuit of abortion legislation, with a specific emphasis on banning abortions, from those perspectives. And, yes, while as humans it is difficult if not impossible to separate our personal moral, ethical, and logical views on the subject it is possible to pursue legislation based purely upon a combination of logical and ethical grounds without venturing into the slippery slope of pursuing - and, especially, enacting - legislation based purely upon moral grounds.

It is easier to argue from both a moral and an ethical perspective that the rights of a future person regarding their imminent opportunity for life should outweigh a person's right to choose whether or not to undergo a given medical procedure, while the opposite is true from a purely logical perspective. It is also a dangerous, very slippery slope to legislate what voluntary medical procedures our citizens may or may not choose to undergo.

The trick is finding a way to balance - in the legislation we choose to pursue much less enact - in this case:
- our responsibility as humans to protect a future person's imminent opportunity for life;
- our responsibility as a society to protect the medical, mental, and emotional health of its members; and
- our responsibility as a nation to protect the personal rights and freedoms of its citizens.
 

Tide1986

Suspended
Nov 22, 2008
15,670
2
0
Birmingham, AL
- our responsibility as a society to protect the medical, mental, and emotional health of its members; and
This proviso in particular begs the question, "What is an individual's responsibility to society?"

If I were to update your list, I'd add:

"- our responsibility as individuals to not burden society with our personal choices".
 

Latest threads

TideFans.shop - NEW Stuff!

TideFans.shop - Get YOUR Bama Gear HERE!”></a>
<br />

<!--/ END TideFans.shop & item link \-->
<p style= Purchases made through our TideFans.shop and Amazon.com links may result in a commission being paid to TideFans.