2016 Season QB Thread

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

I think the discussion about playing for the present or the future illustrates the tremendous pressure Nick Saban is under at Alabama. He's managed to avoid rebuilding, without the luxury of just leaving town like Urban Meyer did when faced with losing key players. Pretty much every other program, has had those peaks and then they have a down year or two while they get ready. I don't expect Ohio State to be in the playoffs this year, but Alabama is expected to be there, no matter who the QB is.

The real issue isn't expectations though, I think it is that every single year Nick Saban knows the team has potential to win a championship. This makes it hard to do really big moves. Coaching changes, choosing who starts, those are all colored by the realization that a championship is within reach and it's more about inching closer than rocking the boat.

So, at QB do you think he's going to go with youth just for the sake of youth? I don't think he can risk the season like that. Much like the notion that Kiffin might go with Barnett over other QBs because of personal preference, I just don't see that is being the primary factor. When in doubt, yes Saban might prefer youth/potential but that comes with risk as well. If Barnett or Hurts get the job, Alabama faces the potential of losing almost all their QB depth so that's another risk. In some ways that makes Bateman the safest choice of them all since it preserves the depth. But, does that mean Bateman wins the job simply because of that? I think those are all factors and none will become the deciding one by itself.

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

BamaMoon said:

In what way would starting Hurts or Barnett cause us to lose depth?

If Bateman and/or Cornwell decide to transfer, let's say if Barnett wins the starting job and plays all year, it's not like the next year Hurts or another stud recruit won't be there for added depth.

As you say, those are factors to consider, but if I'm guessing/ranking factors that one has to be near the bottom. JMO.

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Alabama is really at bare minimum right now. 4 scholarship quarterbacks is cutting it very close, especially when you consider one is true freshman. There have been teams that went that deep into their depth chart at the position, heck some have gone deeper. Lack of depth caught up to Alabama after Phillip Sims transferred and it lead to Alabama adding 3 QBs in a class and then getting a transfer the following season. That was kind of messy and I'd think Saban would prefer a bit more continuity and less chaos.

Just Cornwell transferring after the season can be absorbed. However, if Bateman and Cornwell transfer? Alabama will be in a position where they'll try to grab random guys just to add depth, and there will be a lack of quality depth and a severe lack of experience at the position as well. Part of Alabama's stability has been they haven't been one of those teams left without a QB, but sooner or later depth is going to factor into the equation. So yeah it's not a main factor, but is it any less of a factor than who is Kiffin's favorite or who is younger? I'm not sure...

In the past there has been some speculation that Nick Saban did some things to try to keep people happy. For instance that the AJ/Phillip Sims battle was as much to keep Sims engaged as anything else. I'm not so sure about that, he brought in Coker even though some people felt like that was a disservice to the other QBs. I think pretty much everything people mention other than how the QB plays is a lesser consideration, he's going to try to win, now.

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

KrAzY3 said:

Alabama is really at bare minimum right now. 4 scholarship quarterbacks is cutting it very close, especially when you consider one is true freshman. There have been teams that went that deep into their depth chart at the position, heck some have gone deeper. Lack of depth caught up to Alabama after Phillip Sims transferred and it lead to Alabama adding 3 QBs in a class and then getting a transfer the following season. That was kind of messy and I'd think Saban would prefer a bit more continuity and less chaos.

Just Cornwell transferring after the season can be absorbed. However, if Bateman and Cornwell transfer? Alabama will be in a position where they'll try to grab random guys just to add depth, and there will be a lack of quality depth and a severe lack of experience at the position as well. Part of Alabama's stability has been they haven't been one of those teams left without a QB, but sooner or later depth is going to factor into the equation. So yeah it's not a main factor, but is it any less of a factor than who is Kiffin's favorite or who is younger? I'm not sure...

In the past there has been some speculation that Nick Saban did some things to try to keep people happy. For instance that the AJ/Phillip Sims battle was as much to keep Sims engaged as anything else. I'm not so sure about that, he brought in Coker even though some people felt like that was a disservice to the other QBs. I think pretty much everything people mention other than how the QB plays is a lesser consideration, he's going to try to win, now.

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I think 4 scholarship QBs should be about the maximum a program should carry. Presumably 2 older guys who are battling for the starting position and 2 younger guys who are learning the program and the system. If you get more than 4 on scholarship the position becomes muddled. I understand that freakish things have happened where a team ends up having to play their 5th string QB but that's an extreme outlier. I don't think it's prudent to manage the 85 man roster with respect to those extremely rare situations. Just like if the punter or kicker gets injured at most programs then they're going to be in a world of hurt but I don't think that means that a team should carry 3 kickers and 3 punters..

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

CrimsonForce said:

I think 4 scholarship QBs should be about the maximum a program should carry. Presumably 2 older guys who are battling for the starting position and 2 younger guys who are learning the program and the system. If you get more than 4 on scholarship the position becomes muddled. I understand that freakish things have happened where a team ends up having to play their 5th string QB but that's an extreme outlier. I don't think it's prudent to manage the 85 man roster with respect to those extremely rare situations. Just like if the punter or kicker gets injured at most programs then they're going to be in a world of hurt but I don't think that means that a team should carry 3 kickers and 3 punters..

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I think you might be underestimating the difference between how many guys you need ready to play, and how many you need in total. The quarterback position is one that requires development, it's not just about who you might need this instant, it's about who you might need next year and who is going to replace your starter and so on.

Alabama carried five guys for quite a while and it's really hard to argue against that, but it should be noted that that was a bi-product of a pressing issue at the position. At one point it was really six if you count Luke Del Rio, and yes that was muddled but it was muddled because of lack of depth/experience. Sometimes you have to overcompensate. After Phillip Sims transferred, it left only Ely, Blake Sims and Morris after AJ and even though that was four guys it still represented a lack of quality depth and perhaps as importantly the #2 only had a single year of eligibility left after AJ. Alabama brought in three more guys even though they already had four...

So, you might argue that 4 is the maximum but I reiterate that I think it is the minimum. It takes time to develop players, players can transfer, players can get hurt, and you absolutely can't go without a quarterback. It's a tricky position to manage, but you do what you have to do to maintain depth. It will be an issue if two guys transfer out, that's all there is to it and I can pretty much guarantee you Saban isn't going to go with only 3 scholarship quarterbacks.

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

KrAzY3 said:

I think you might be underestimating the difference between how many guys you need ready to play, and how many you need in total. The quarterback position is one that requires development, it's not just about who you might need this instant, it's about who you might need next year and who is going to replace your starter and so on.

Alabama carried five guys for quite a while and it's really hard to argue against that, but it should be noted that that was a bi-product of a pressing issue at the position. At one point it was really six if you count Luke Del Rio, and yes that was muddled but it was muddled because of lack of depth/experience. Sometimes you have to overcompensate. After Phillip Sims transferred, it left only Ely, Blake Sims and Morris after AJ and even though that was four guys it still represented a lack of quality depth and perhaps as importantly the #2 only had a single year of eligibility left after AJ. Alabama brought in three more guys even though they already had four...

So, you might argue that 4 is the maximum but I reiterate that I think it is the minimum. It takes time to develop players, players can transfer, players can get hurt, and you absolutely can't go without a quarterback. It's a tricky position to manage, but you do what you have to do to maintain depth. It will be an issue if two guys transfer out, that's all there is to it and I can pretty much guarantee you Saban isn't going to go with only 3 scholarship quarterbacks.

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I'm not trying to be snarky, but yes, this that and then other could always happen. A team could have 10 scholarship QBs on roster and they could all get injured or transfer out at the same time. However, the chance of that happening is close to 0%. That was my point that you don't plan for a scenario like that.

Also, a team could have 10 QBs on scholarship but you can only prepare 2-3 of those guys because of the practice time restrictions. Once you get beyond 4-5 QBs there just aren't enough reps to go around. I don't know off the top of my head but I don't think that most FBS programs carry more than 4-5 scholarship QBs. You said that 4 would be your minimum so you think that most programs should carry 6-7 scholarship QBs?

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

Recruiting QB's with stars guarantees some routine purging. Hurts is only thinking about getting better. All indications are the coaches are high on Barnett's talents and I would think he knows it. As G-Mac has said, numerous times, "he can spin it." That leaves Bateman and Cornwell to figure out what they want to do and when they want to do it. They will. Either way, we are going to open against USC with a talented, inexperienced QB.

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

CrimsonForce said:

I'm not trying to be snarky, but yes, this that and then other could always happen. A team could have 10 scholarship QBs on roster and they could all get injured or transfer out at the same time. However, the chance of that happening is close to 0%. That was my point that you don't plan for a scenario like that.

Also, a team could have 10 QBs on scholarship but you can only prepare 2-3 of those guys because of the practice time restrictions. Once you get beyond 4-5 QBs there just aren't enough reps to go around. I don't know off the top of my head but I don't think that most FBS programs carry more than 4-5 scholarship QBs. You said that 4 would be your minimum so you think that most programs should carry 6-7 scholarship QBs?

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To cut to the chase, I think the optimum amount is 4-5. I think 3 isn't enough and 6 is probably too much. Remember, I was specifically speaking about the issues Alabama would encounter if at least 2 quarterbacks transferred.

You might look at this as what if scenarios, but look at the issues Florida, Georgia, and Auburn had at quarterback last year. Quality depth matters. There's plenty of reasons to have multiple guys ready to play. Furthermore, some people speculated, idly I believe that Cornwell could even transfer after spring (I heard this more so when he was in the doghouse). How do you prepare for that eventuality though? If you only have 3 scholarship quarterbacks, and one transfers out then you are left with two, a rather dire position to be in. Any way I look at it, you want four guys there.

If you want mismanagement of the quarterback position look at LSU and imagine how much more success they might have had if they developed quarterbacks and managed the position better. I do firmly believe that maintaining quality depth needs to be a priority. I don't think you can just go ok we have two good guys, we're fine. Alabama kind of did that with AJ and Phillip and it turned into a scramble to add guys. I mean think about it, they had the running back go back to play QB, they brought in 3 in one class, and then they brought in a transfer. Now is that too much? Well it worked better than how LSU has managed things didn't it? Alabama won back to back SEC championships and a national title doing that...

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

I do think the 4-5 number is about right for QBs in terms of roster management. Schools generally want to sign one QB per year which would mean ideally there are 4 or 5 guys on campus at any given time.

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

KrAzY3 said:

To cut to the chase, I think the optimum amount is 4-5. I think 3 isn't enough and 6 is probably too much. Remember, I was specifically speaking about the issues Alabama would encounter if at least 2 quarterbacks transferred.

You might look at this as what if scenarios, but look at the issues Florida, Georgia, and Auburn had at quarterback last year. Quality depth matters. There's plenty of reasons to have multiple guys ready to play. Furthermore, some people speculated, idly I believe that Cornwell could even transfer after spring (I heard this more so when he was in the doghouse). How do you prepare for that eventuality though? If you only have 3 scholarship quarterbacks, and one transfers out then you are left with two, a rather dire position to be in. Any way I look at it, you want four guys there.

If you want mismanagement of the quarterback position look at LSU and imagine how much more success they might have had if they developed quarterbacks and managed the position better. I do firmly believe that maintaining quality depth needs to be a priority. I don't think you can just go ok we have two good guys, we're fine. Alabama kind of did that with AJ and Phillip and it turned into a scramble to add guys. I mean think about it, they had the running back go back to play QB, they brought in 3 in one class, then they brought in a transfer. Now is that too much? Well it worked better than how LSU has managed things didn't it? Alabama won back to back SEC championships and a national title doing that...

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Ok, in you're post before this one you said that 4 would be your minimum so I figured that you thought 6 or more would be best. I agree that ~4 is ideal. Another aspect to consider is that it's harder to recruit top talent if you consistently carry 5+ scholarship QBs. I'm not sure we get Jalen Hurts if we had 4-5 QBs on the roster. We only had 3 and we were able to sign one of the best QBs in the class. I don't think that you should purposely have low QB numbers to try and sign the top QB prospects but there's definitely some roster management that has to occur in order to attract the top prospects but also have enough QBs on hand to deal with injuries and transfers. QB roster management is definitely a delicate situation to handle..

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

We have enough athletes on the team to move over to QB in the event that depth becomes an issue.

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

CrimsonForce said:

I'm not trying to be snarky, but yes, this that and then other could always happen. A team could have 10 scholarship QBs on roster and they could all get injured or transfer out at the same time. However, the chance of that happening is close to 0%. That was my point that you don't plan for a scenario like that.

Also, a team could have 10 QBs on scholarship but you can only prepare 2-3 of those guys because of the practice time restrictions. Once you get beyond 4-5 QBs there just aren't enough reps to go around. I don't know off the top of my head but I don't think that most FBS programs carry more than 4-5 scholarship QBs. You said that 4 would be your minimum so you think that most programs should carry 6-7 scholarship QBs?

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Our depth issue's and possible Achilles Heel lies at RB. At QB, if you have kept up with our recruiting in the past, it is hit or miss, so it never hurts to have quantity to evaluate and develop into a few of quality. The coaches are smart smart enough to weed out and develop a position that is difficult to scout from HS to college.

Pretty sure that Coker and GMAC were both 3 star rated. We had several 4 star QB's that seemed to have stage fright. That is a characteristic that is hard to evaluate. Playing uninhibited in front of 100,000 fans and ESPN is a trait that is hard to evaluate. Much easier to play OL with a little stage than the starting QB. So the more the merrier.

Imo, the recruiting of QB's has been by far the most fickle position during CNS's tenure. That is not his fault, but I have faith Kiffin. He hand picked Barnett, and I am ready to see him play......again, even if you disprove, with growing pains, if he has by far the most upside. Why not?

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

Sabanizer said:

Our depth issue's and possible Achilles Heel lies at RB. At QB, if you have kept up with our recruiting in the past, it is hit or miss, so it never hurts to have quantity to evaluate and develop into a few of quality. The coaches are smart smart enough to weed out and develop a position that is difficult to scout from HS to college.

Pretty sure that Coker and GMAC were both 3 star rated. We had several 4 star QB's that seemed to have stage fright. That is a characteristic that is hard to evaluate. Playing uninhibited in front of 100,000 fans and ESPN is a trait that is hard to evaluate. Much easier to play OL with a little stage than the starting QB. So the more the merrier.

Imo, the recruiting of QB's has been by far the most fickle position during CNS's tenure. That is not his fault, but I have faith Kiffin. He hand picked Barnett, and I am ready to see him play......again, even if you disprove, with growing pains, if he has by far the most upside. Why not?

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Quarterback is like shortstop or point guard. There is no real upside until you can control the downside.

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

CrimsonEyeshade said:

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Quarterback is like shortstop or point guard. There is no real upside until you can control the downside.

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The downside in the Saban system is doing more than asked. And the only way to get past the downside is through experience. Who are you referring to?

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

Sabanizer, I was referring to Blake. Physical talent -- and the ability to do the spectacular -- can almost be a distraction because it doesn't determine whether you can really play the game. Blake will play when he can consistently do the ordinary. He appears to have a smaller window to win over the coaches. Hurts looms large in his rear-view mirror.

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

We are still 8 months away from NSD, so anything can happen. With that said, Alabama took a commitment from a second QB in this recruiting class yesterday. What does that mean for the current guys? Do the coaches expect someone to transfer out?

Take a look at what the presumed depth chart will be when Tua and Mac Jones arrive on campus in 2017:

Cooper Bateman, SR
David Cornwell, JR
Blake Barnett, rsSO
Jalen Hurts, rsFR

Believing they both take a red shirt their freshman season, the 2018 depth chart will look like this:

David Cornwell, SR
Blake Barnett, JR
Lane Hurts, SO
Tua Tagovailoa, rsFR
Mac Jones, rsFR

Saban could always be adding two guys to have some depth for the 2018 season.

Re: 2016 Season QB Thread (Moved QB Posts from Practice Thread)

RTR91 said:

We are still 8 months away from NSD, so anything can happen. With that said, Alabama took a commitment from a second QB in this recruiting class yesterday. What does that mean for the current guys? Do the coaches expect someone to transfer out?.

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Could this be some sort of a carry over from when they had two commits last season? I remember bringing up my idea of a bare minimum before, and I felt like four was bare minimum. The context was if more than one transferred out that Alabama would end up short, even with someone incoming.

It could just be that Saban would rather have 6 guys than risk being short? It is an interesting situation though, we haven't seen something quite like this since the class that had Parker, Bateman, and Del Rio in it.