Saban or Bear? Though Alabama fans squirm, answer may be simple

LA4Bama

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Saban 191–60–1 -- 76% victorious
Bryant 323–85–17 -- 76% victorious

The number of championships won is only one of many measuring sticks. Using that standard leaves out so much about the men. Just in terms of all-time "dynasties" I think when Saban is done we will look back and say the run of dominance from 2008-20xx was the greatest run of dominance relative to the competition in the history of college football. However, we also had plenty of breaks go our way (like Arkansas's ridiculous victory this year) so that the number of championships cannot be used as the only standard. I also have no memory of Bryant, so I'm in no position to know about him as a man. But the reverence towards him seems greater to me than that given to Saban. Just considering Bryant has the same winning percentage but over many more years, it seems hard to give the nod to Saban.
 

KrAzY3

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While I do honestly think Saban has had more working against him (tighter scholarship limits, more intrusive NCAA, a deliberately more leveled playing field, etc...) I don't think a direct comparison can be made.

The truth is that Bear Bryant was the best of his era and Nick Saban is the best of his era. However, if they swapped places neither might have done nearly as well. Some of the things they are able to do in their respective eras might not translate to another period of time. It's like saying Babe Ruth could hit modern day pitching, how do we know for sure? On the other hand, how do we know modern day pitchers could deal with Babe Ruth's era, without pitch counts and modern medicine? So, we can guess and assume, but the only really fair way to do it is to judge someone by their peers at the time. That's how to determine greatness, you can't compare Don Hutson to Jerry Rice, it isn't really fair to either individual when you try to do that.
 

GrayTide

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Agree KrAzY, comparing players, games, teams and coaches from one era to another may be fun and certainly worthy of discussion, but is pure folly. Regardless of how you feel, we are fortunate beyond belief to had/have the two best coaches in college football history. :BigA:
 

selmaborntidefan

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This reminds me of a problem I have every year when I go to BDS in the fall and need a sweatshirt.

Should I wear:

a) the 1992 burgundy one that is old but MAN IT LOOKS THE BEST ON ME!!!
b) the 2009 black one that is my least favorite color-wise but fits our opponent in a night game
c) the 2011 one that I've never worn and looks the newest
d) the 2012 one with 'back to back' on it, bright crimson that looks oh so good!!
e) the 2015 black long-sleeve shirt that feels better than any of them...

Or should I wear one without a championship mention on it? Naw, can't do that!!!

I always wear something different than I spent months thinking.

Same thing here.
 

Alasippi

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the problem is that when CPB coached there was nowhere near the amount of great teams around like there is today. Plus there were nowhere as near as many recruiting restrictions in his day either. But I think if anyone wants to make the strongest case for CPB they really need to start with his undefeated Kentucky team that should've been national champions. That is something no coach can ever say that they have ever done.
He should have won the national title, without question, in 1966. That was the best Bama team in history in my opinion. At least in that era. It was easily the best team of 64-65-and 66 and 64-65 both won the championship.
He should have won it in 77. We were ranked number two going into the bowls and were a seven point underdog to Ohio State. We destroyed them something like 35-7 or close to that.
Meanwhile, fifth rated Notre Dame beat number one Texas in the Cotton Bowl. The voters kept us at two and moved Notre Dame to number one.
The teams had one common opponent. We killed Ole Miss and Ole Miss beat Notre Dame. Both teams had one loss. Go figure.
That, along with the two you mention and he honestly should have ten titles.
I think the best conclusion though is the sentiments many have expressed. It's two different era's and both are the best of their era.
I also agree that they are very similar in coaching philosophy's. Both emphasized discipline, being in excellent condition and paying attention to, "little things", in other words, details or correct fundamentals.
And they both wanted their players to have a chance for success after football.
Just two really good men who happened to be great coaches at the same school, and we get to bask in their glory :)
sip
 
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Alasippi

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I'll add this though. John Mckay won four national titles at USC. He had far far more talented players than Bryant ever did, and this is what he had to say...
"He wasn't just a coach," former USC coach John McKay said. "He was the coach."
 

ALA2262

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Before anybody rushes to relegate Coach Bryant to 2nd best, consider this, he rightfully should have had at least 3 3 more, one in 1966, one at TAMU and one at Kentucky when he upset a heavily favored OU team riding a 33 game winning streak at the height of Coach Bud Wilkerson's reign there in what today would have been the NC game.


Also consider that Coach Bryant NEVER had the luxury of seeing any hot recruit in action just by turnig on a computer and then calling that recruit on his cell phone. Recruiting was a completely different animal back in Coach Bryant's day.

I refuse to pick one or the the other, they're both amazing and I just thank the good Lord that I've been able to see the entirety of their careers at Alabama. Now I'm just praying that I can squeeze in another season or two because I think we are gonna be special.
In regards to 1950, in today's CFB world, Kentucky at 10-1 with FOUR of their wins over non 1-A teams would not be playing Oklahoma in the NC game. That would probably be Tennessee at 10-1 with one of their wins coming against Kentucky.
 

Redwood Forrest

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The one thing that always set Bryant apart from the rest was the fact that he took over programs on bottom and yet had only one losing season.

Maryland: 4-5, 1-7-1, 6-2-1

Kentucky: 3-6, 2-8, 60-23-6

Tex A&M: 3-6-1, 4-5-1, 25-14-2

Alabama: 2-7, 2-7, 232-46-9

Bryant also made Kentucky, Texas A&M and Alabama a player in their conference. Taking four teams who were down and having only one losing season is a remarkable feat especially since at least two were not known for football.
 

ALA2262

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the problem is that when CPB coached there was nowhere near the amount of great teams around like there is today. Plus there were nowhere as near as many recruiting restrictions in his day either. But I think if anyone wants to make the strongest case for CPB they really need to start with his undefeated Kentucky team that should've been national champions. That is something no coach can ever say that they have ever done.
Kentucky was not undefeated. Lost to Tennessee. Plus four of their wins were against non-1A teams. Bad non-1A teams. Kentucky outscored them 189-7.

Oklahoma had played five 1A teams with a winning record, had won 31 straight games, and played no non-1A team. Tennessee was the ONLY team with a winning record that Kentucky had played. And lost to them.

In 1950, as in 1964, the AP NC was awarded after the regular season. Saying that Oklahoma should not be the 1950 NC because they lost to Kentucky is the same as people saying Alabama should not be the 1964 NC because they lost to Texas.
 
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TUSKtimes

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Just taking a stroll down memory lane this Sunday morning:

Coach Bryant coached against 11 former players and assistant coaches. He was 45-6.

LSU's coach Cholly Mac about coach Bryant's teaching ability:
" He taught me everything I know, but not everything he knows."
 

81usaf92

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Kentucky was not undefeated. Lost to Tennessee. Plus four of their wins were against non-1A teams. Bad non-1A teams. Kentucky outscored them 189-7.

Oklahoma had played five 1A teams with a winning record, had won 31 straight games, and played no non-1A team. Tennessee was the ONLY team with a winning record that Kentucky had played. And lost to them.

In 1950, as in 1964, the AP NC was awarded after the regular season. Saying that Oklahoma should not be the 1950 NC because they lost to Kentucky is the same as people saying Alabama should not be the 1964 NC because they lost to Texas.
My mistake, but still it's Kentucky beating Oklahoma.
 

selmaborntidefan

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I don't know that anyone can approach this question without some degree of bias. A lot of points can be made in both men's favor (and some made here already are ridiculous).

I think another thing that plays a major role is the fact that Bryant was not just a Tide coach, he was also a Tide PLAYER, a man who met his wife on campus in the 1930s. Saban is not - in that sense - 'one of us' and I think this colors the argument for some people. Another thing is the whole 'adoring the unseen.' Let's face it - if you're my age (46), you BARELY remember Coach Bryant, whom I caught on the tail end of his career (the 1978-79 championships).

Let's get rid of a few of the more ridiculous arguments here. Trying to argue Coach Bryant should have had more titles borders on the absurd at one level. You can't have it both ways. The same fans who tout 1964 and 1973 by saying "that's just the way it was then" try to jigger the outcome for 1950, 1966, and 1977. While it's true Alabama sort of 'got hosed' in 1966, the Tide benefited in 1965 from a one-year change to the rules caused by the 1964 outcome.

Saban may not have won ten games in a year consecutively prior to 2010, but he also never went to eight straight bowls and came home winless, either. (If we're going to make those kinds of arguments......) And let's just set aside the notion Saban CREATED the monster that won those games....

Here's another one that begs for context:

Imagine CNS dealing with segregation, the image of southern people as inferior and having the majority of sports writers from regions that hate southern football.

This is hilarious in light of the fact that a simple perusal of this board shows that folks here think the last two points (especially the LAST one) are constant problems nowadays. I think Saban would deal with segregation pretty much the same way and has the same advantage Bryant did in being from what is essentially a Southern state. That Southern upbringing with Bryant was a major advantage (particularly his being poor) that helped him relate.

Bryant didn't have scholarship limitations or coach in the SEC during its most competitive era. Now this has the potential to be overstated. Bryant came to Alabama in 1958 and consider the fact that LSU, Auburn, and Ole Miss all won national titles along with Alabama in the 1957-1961 time frame. But for the rest of his tenure, the SEC wasn't really all that big a deal. In EIGHT of the seasons between 1964 and 1982 (19 seasons), there was only ONE OTHER SEC team ranked in what was then a Top TWENTY (not 25). In three of those eight years, that team didn't even play Alabama and thus you might have even fewer ranked had those teams had another loss. Saban, on the other hand, has competed against teams from LSU, Florida, and Auburn who won it all around the Tide's titles in addition to facing an Auburn team that came within twelve seconds of winning it all and another national champion that beat us head-to-head in a semi-final. Keep in mind Saban also faced a top-ranked Mississippi State team in 2014.

It's true that Bryant did not have the modern recruiting advantage, but I would argue he had something better: the name (Alabama) and the fact that back then teams did not play on TV more than three times a year. Florida as a state did not have three competitive teams so he was snagging talent from there.

Of course - as with everything - there's also a flip side. Bryant had two undefeated national champions (Saban one) and a third unbeaten team (1966). We can argue over who had the tougher job to inherit - Alabama had won four games in three years when Bryant was hired but the team had been in a dumpster for eight of the previous ten years and was on a second probation when Saban arrived. Bryant's players played both offense and defense rather often (it was expected back then) and with inferior equipment and training methods compared to now.

Both guys inherited dumpster fires and turned them around. Bryant won an SEC title at Kentucky ("Marty, I just got back from 2015 and UK still hasn't won the SEC since 1950!") and a SWC title at ATM; Saban won national championships at TWO schools in the toughest conference.


Both guys had some extraordinary luck winning national titles - Bryant with the AP's fortuitous decision to wait until after the bowl games to select a champion in 1965 (along with the two titles that ended with losses) and Saban benefiting from the bizarre computer gimmicks of the 2003 BCS (while he should have been in the game and OU should not have, LSU only made it because Boise State beat Hawaii and Syracuse throttled Notre Dame - those two losses crippled USC's strength of schedule) and Ohio State being on probation in 2012.


One thing I would point out is that across ALL sports the quality of play and competition has improved greatly. Baseball had 27 times where a guy hit .400 or better from 1876-1941, a period of 65 years......in the 75 years since it has NEVER happened. Do any of you REALLY think that ALL of the best hitters to ever play MLB played in ONE era? Of course not. Cy Young won 511 games.......and ALL of the top six winners in baseball history played more than 50 years ago.

Again - do ANY of you REALLY think that the best six pitchers of all-time pitched prior to 1965?

Me, neither. I'll have more to say later, worship beckons me.
 

Bama Reb

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Everyone has their own opinion, and I'm sure all or them have a degree of validity. I refuse to compare the two though. Bear was the greatest in his time, Coach Saban is the greatest now. We're so lucky to be the recipient of their coaching genius.
 

TommyMac

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Kentucky was not undefeated. Lost to Tennessee. Plus four of their wins were against non-1A teams. Bad non-1A teams. Kentucky outscored them 189-7.

Oklahoma had played five 1A teams with a winning record, had won 31 straight games, and played no non-1A team. Tennessee was the ONLY team with a winning record that Kentucky had played. And lost to them.

In 1950, as in 1964, the AP NC was awarded after the regular season. Saying that Oklahoma should not be the 1950 NC because they lost to Kentucky is the same as people saying Alabama should not be the 1964 NC because they lost to Texas.


Oklahoma basically played a 1-AA schedule in the Big Eight of those days, hence it being called "Oklahoma and the Seven Dwarfs."
 

CrimSonami

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Don't know if this had been said previously. Haven't read all posts. But there's no justifiable way to compare the two. Politics of the 60's thru 70's news media era compared to the BCS/Playoff era and social media craze are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Apples and Oranges is a cliché but...............

Apples and Oranges.
 

B1GTide

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Don't know if this had been said previously. Haven't read all posts. But there's no justifiable way to compare the two. Politics of the 60's thru 70's news media era compared to the BCS/Playoff era and social media craze are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Apples and Oranges is a cliché but...............

Apples and Oranges.
Well, we can compare apples and oranges. They are not the same, but they can be compared. ;-)
 

Al A Bama

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If Saban wins his sixth title in 2016, we're talking about an accomplishment beyond historic. It will be his fifth in an eight-year span at Alabama. He will have won six overall (one at LSU) in a 14-year period. Bryant won his six in 19 years.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...though-alabama-fans-squirm-the-answer-is-easy

Having lived through the Bryant ear and now living the Saban era, I have to say "I am not sure." I think I will wait for #7 before making up my mind:)
Records are made to be broken. I see nothing but positives from Coach Saban winning a few more. And I have a picture of Coach Bryant in my study looking at me as I type. He was awesome during a 25 year period at Alabama. Coach Saban will hopefully equal or exceed that awesomeness in the future. He has already exceeded it in some ways. One by winning so many NC's in a short period of time. I really think he should have at least 6, maybe 7 NC's at Alabama now.

Coach Bryant was one of the two best college football coaches in history. Coach Saban is the other one. I loved to hear Coach Bryant growl, I mean talk, and Coach Saban is the most articulate coach I've ever heard. I think both could convince you to run through the Alamo or a brick wall without using a door or window.

P. S. Coach Wallace Wade was a good 'un. Coach Frank Thomas and Gene Stallings were also.

If you are a good coach, you can win at Bama. I'm still amazed at Coach Ears inability to win in the mid-1950's. You have to be the kind of person who can take the bull by the horns and dominate.
 

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