And therein lies the problem. I do believe kids today are different. IMHO, that`s because parents are different.
Alabama Assistant Bo Davis leaving over inquiry into possible recruiting violations
- Thread starter CrimsonForce
- Start date
Yep. And, he's trolling our fanbase because it is fun. Kids know how to get a response on social media. Every kid Ive worked with does this every day. I find it hilarious how some adults respond to kids like this. "You dumb kid! 140 characters speaks volumes of your character!" Um what? Makes you wonder who's the "kid".
Back on topic. (I know I was the one who derailed it). Supposing that no school is clean when it comes to recruiting and also supposing that Nick Saban is an ethical guy (which I think we all want to believe) it makes me wonder what that balance looks like. How is the line drawn?
That's not my point. My point is everyone else was bidding! And the SEC office actively told every team but Alabama to back off. Particularly everyone's boosters were bidding and the SEC was doing it's duty by letting the coaches know that there was suspicious activity going on with that recruit. Except Alabama's coaches.
Can you not see the problem with this? I am not excusing Alabama's (from the boosters to the coaches) behavior during this time period. I am also NOT excusing the other teams and the conference office. We were derided and mocked mercilessly not only by those fans, but also by the NCAA. We were told we were staring down the barrel of a gun and that Alabama was what was wrong with collegiate athletics. All the while the sniveling weasels in Knoxville were doing the same thing. I have always had a major problem with this.
So you are saying that if Alabama's nose is just as dirty as anyone else's (what that may or may not constitute "dirty" can go undefined) then it is perpetrated entirely by people beneath Saban without his direct knowledge? I'm wondering what Saban's true mindset is on this. How much he wants to know or what he DOES know. And are we talking about purely boosters or also systemic work from the coaching staff. Obviously that ends at some point because of what we just witnessed with Burns. In my mind it's like CNS is like the modern NCAA. He knows it's going on. He's not going out of his way to track down every shred of it. But if it comes to his immediate attention, he deals with it forthwith. So the game truly is that if you steer clear of Saban, you know you've steered clear of the NCAA.
This board is really the most extreme that I bore down into college football, so a lot of this stuff is just theorizing to me. I grew up playing baseball, not football. So when it comes to staffing and boosters and all that - it can seem foreign.
Naw, I understood your point. What the SEC and NCAA did was borderline corrupt. But the bigger problem for all Alabama fans should be this: Our football program -- regardless of what other teams were up to -- was blatantly buying players, and we were doing it in the shadows of a previous probation.
We were not treated fairly, true. We have only ourselves to blame.
We were not treated fairly, true. We have only ourselves to blame.
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So do what you have to do and keep the most powerful man in college football in the dark is an accepted policy at the University of Alabama?
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A completely unnecessary hypothetical scenario was posed and a response was given. I can't figure out why people keep commenting on it as anything other than that.
I think you'll find a lot of conflicting opinions on this topic. And being largely ignorant of the way that top tier CFB programs are operated from an infrastructural perspective, I wanted read what more knowledgable people such as yourself and others had to say. So, if I may clarify-
Here's where I think a lot of fans may get their panties in a bunch. There are 2 points of belief that seem to be at odds with one another. I'm not supporting either one, I'm just jotting them down here as I've seen them across this board, so don't shoot the messenger.
Point 1: There are a large portion of fans who believe that UA, like every other school, isn't entirely clean when it comes to recruiting. Not just a coach out of line here or there but a consistent body of work. It's severity unnamed - but debatably the same as another similarly sized Power 5 school's transgressions. Again, not my opinion - but one's I've read here.
Point 2: There are a large portion of fans who believe that Nick Saban is an ethical man. As often as he preaches doing the right things to his players and what it means to be man and conducting oneself with integrity.
Those two points - for the people that hold those views - would seem to be in competition with one another.
As I've stated before, I personally don't know enough about college football infrastructure and recruiting protocol to know whether the first point is accurate or not - so there's no real conflict for me but I could see how other people would be in a bit of a quandary about it.
So I don't think it was very fair to say it was an unnecessary hypothetical scenario because I drew both points of views from opinions I've seen dispersed across this board by dozens of members since my joining (though I am one of the newer members). And since it dealt with our own football program and I felt safe asking the more knowledgable folks here, I posed the question. Perhaps I touched on a raw nerve by asking about shirking recruiting regulations so boldly, but it was due purely to ignorance. While watching Bama football religiously since I was born, I was never immersed in it's inner workings. That was part of the reason I joined this discussion board, to become more informed and read more experienced opinions.
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Those are called fans of other teams. Seriously, I've been here a while and does anyone want to raise their hand and be the one to say that here? Anyone? Your ambiguous language though, is just... odd to me. "severity unnamed - but debatably the same as another similarly sized Power 5 school's transgressions"? What does that even mean? If you need someone to spell it out for you though, no Alabama isn't doing what Ole Miss is doing.
I think there seems to be a disconnect here. Knowing the litany of NCAA rules, we all know rules are broken, because so many asinine things are technically against the rules. Think about the things that have become issues in the past, a cookout, a signed napkin, textbooks, a fishing trip, etc... Do any of those things make a program "dirty"? Hell no they don't! Were they all violations of NCAA rules? Yes, they were.
So, when most people say everyone breaks the rules, it's the same as saying every commits crimes. When you have so many rules and laws, they get broken. There's a world of difference between going a few miles over the speed limit and robbing a bank though. For comparison purposes, Ole Miss robbed a bank. Mind you, I was one of the guys that was saying Ole Miss was doing it before their 2013 class was even finished. It was obvious, it was overt. Here was a mediocre SEC school with very little going for it, and an unproven head coach, suddenly out-recruiting the top programs in the nation, even if a player has no interest previously or no reason to want to go to Ole Miss. That's what dirty looks like.
Nick Saban came to Alabama after coaching in both the SEC and the Big 10, with no history or NCAA run-ins following him. He's a great recruiter and the reason is pretty obvious, he works hard, he focuses on tiny details and he's honest. Alabama as a SEC team with the best history, perched in the heart of SEC recruiting territory always had a recruiting advantage on their own. This, combined with Nick Saban made for an obviously successful mix. Logically Alabama under Saban doesn't have to cheat to bring in great classes and furthermore how would Ole Miss be luring recruits away from other schools if what they were doing wasn't more egregious?
Having said that, are rules still broken? Of course they are! Bo getting fired is proof of that, but what you see at Alabama is basically as clean a program as any FBS program can be. Also, while you claim to be the "messenger" your questions were leading, and as I said before completely unnecessary.
Read what you said in your post before, which basically says how with what is going on can Nick Saban be an ethical guy? You're calling Nick Saban into question solely on the basis of your own speculation! That might not be your intention but at this point you are basically fishing and when someone answers your hypothetical scenarios you use that to just keep going on with something that is baseless. Yes, it is a sore subject because the NCAA has hammered Alabama maliciously in the past, playing into a narrative created by those goons at the NCAA isn't helpful.
Honestly, I'd be fine with this topic being closed at this point. We have a good idea of what actually went on, it was a secondary violation, a minor violation and would have otherwise been of little consequence. Speculation beyond that on unrelated matters, especially when they turn accusatory is of no tangible use.
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TE, I've never been able to buy that point of view. The corruption surrounding Means was well known to everyone. A friend of mine who writes some about Bama sports, but who posts mostly on TI, wrote in a post there that whoever signed Albert Means was going on probation. It could have happened only on the watch of Dubose and the dumbest staff ever to coach at a college. Logan and a couple of other boosters were allowed to run wild. Further, if all that happened under that regime were publicly known, we probably would have received the death penalty. Personally, when I heard we'd signed him, I remembered what CCBama had posted and crossed my fingers. Didn't work, of course...
I do believe you are correct and everyone knew and we were stupid to have done what we did (boosters and coaches). I still have a problem with the fact that the SEC office took measures, even if they were only ceremonial, but did not include Alabama.
I guess it all comes back to the fact that we get pummeled for something everyone else was up to. The fact that this happened during my formative years doesn't help my opinion of the whole ordeal.
I always felt like there was enough blame to go around for everybody
There was selective prosecution on the part of the NCAA (personal agendas stemming from the 1993 fiasco). The SEC office could have picked up the phone and prevented the Means thing, but didn't. Dubose and staff were stupid enough to ignore the warning signs, and credible posters have alluded that there was plenty of stuff going on wholly unrelated to Means.
What still sticks in my craw was the preferential treatment other violators got. Tennessee had its own issues with boosters and an academic scandal, and they skated entirely. I'll always believe there was a deal with the NCAA there -- Fulmer gives them Alabama, and they make UTe's problems go away.
The only reason it was in the repeat violator window was a self-reported problem with an assistant basketball coach who solocited money from two guys in Montgomery, who promptly and properly reported it. We fired him, but the window got extended. Then the Dubose stuff happened, and the personal agendas fried us, ignoring their own rules to do so.
There were a lot of things arrayed against us. But we helped it along by (1) being stupid on Means, and (2) subsequently, and incredibly naively, cooperating with the NCAA to the point of waiving rights.
Ironically, it set the blueprint for the rest of the country for how to handle the NCAA -- Pay in green bills only. Pay everybody, so nobody's unhappy or feels left out. Don't skimp -- lawyers are way more expensive than players. If you get caught, lawyer up instantly. Say nothing. Be sure everybody else is paid to keep their mouths shut, too. Meanwhile, threaten suit. File one of you have to. Auburn followed that perfectly, and skated on the Cam case.
Further irony: Fulmer and UTe really teed off Karma, and she came back on them with great vengeance and furious anger. Other schools followed the Auburn model, which was built on watching our own failed efforts, and the NCAA is now a toothless tiger.
There was selective prosecution on the part of the NCAA (personal agendas stemming from the 1993 fiasco). The SEC office could have picked up the phone and prevented the Means thing, but didn't. Dubose and staff were stupid enough to ignore the warning signs, and credible posters have alluded that there was plenty of stuff going on wholly unrelated to Means.
What still sticks in my craw was the preferential treatment other violators got. Tennessee had its own issues with boosters and an academic scandal, and they skated entirely. I'll always believe there was a deal with the NCAA there -- Fulmer gives them Alabama, and they make UTe's problems go away.
The only reason it was in the repeat violator window was a self-reported problem with an assistant basketball coach who solocited money from two guys in Montgomery, who promptly and properly reported it. We fired him, but the window got extended. Then the Dubose stuff happened, and the personal agendas fried us, ignoring their own rules to do so.
There were a lot of things arrayed against us. But we helped it along by (1) being stupid on Means, and (2) subsequently, and incredibly naively, cooperating with the NCAA to the point of waiving rights.
Ironically, it set the blueprint for the rest of the country for how to handle the NCAA -- Pay in green bills only. Pay everybody, so nobody's unhappy or feels left out. Don't skimp -- lawyers are way more expensive than players. If you get caught, lawyer up instantly. Say nothing. Be sure everybody else is paid to keep their mouths shut, too. Meanwhile, threaten suit. File one of you have to. Auburn followed that perfectly, and skated on the Cam case.
Further irony: Fulmer and UTe really teed off Karma, and she came back on them with great vengeance and furious anger. Other schools followed the Auburn model, which was built on watching our own failed efforts, and the NCAA is now a toothless tiger.
Certainly it was irritating and showed Kramer's bias. However, if everyone else were doing it, we were impossibly clumsy at it. Ivan Maisel put it well. He said something to the effect that it wasn't that Bama wasn't doing what other schools were doing, but that we were so "ham-handed at it."
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