"Powerful" pictures of poverty in America

bama_wayne1 · May 18, 2016

crimsonaudio said:
When it's cheaper to feed your family at McDonalds than to prepare a healthy meal, something is wrong with your food chain...

It's not.
I can buy a bag of leg quarters, a bag of beans, and potatoes and cook enough for several days on what you can feed five for 1 meal at McDonalds.

Tide1986 · May 18, 2016

92tide said:
yes, you can find poor folks that take advantage of other's generosity, but you are projecting a lot of negative connotations onto poor folks in your example (e.g. taking from others with no "shame").

My focus is on those who systemically rely on help. How should they feel? Good? What feeling would best motivate them toward self-sufficiency?

I wonder if a fundamental disconnect in all of this discussion is over the desirability of self-sufficiency. Assuming self-sufficiency is a desirable state, there's something paradoxical about believing in it as a desired state but believing that it is unattainable without help from others.

bamachile · May 18, 2016

Tide1986 said:
My focus is on those who systemically rely on help. How should they feel? Good? What feeling would best motivate them toward self-sufficiency?

I wonder if a fundamental disconnect in all of this discussion is over the desirability of self-sufficiency. Assuming self-sufficiency is a desirable state, there's something paradoxical about believing in it as a desired state but believing that it is unattainable without help from others.

The best model for charity of which I can think is jump-starting a vehicle. Unfortunately, jump-starting won't work if a systemic issue (e.g. - bad alternator) prevents self-sufficiency. Perhaps system troubleshooting should be required after the first or second jump in a given period of time.

92tide · May 18, 2016

Tide1986 said:
My focus is on those who systemically rely on help. How should they feel? Good? What feeling would best motivate them toward self-sufficiency?

I wonder if a fundamental disconnect in all of this discussion is over the desirability of self-sufficiency. Assuming self-sufficiency is a desirable state, there's something paradoxical about believing in it as a desired state but believing that it is unattainable without help from others.

what do you mean systematically rely on help? there are plenty of folks who have been on some form of assistance their whole life, but who have also worked hard their whole lives and raised (or attempted to raise) families (and in many cases that includes other people's kids). they have plenty to be proud of and feel good about.

Crimson1967 · May 18, 2016

I used to be a grocery store cashier and we had a lot of food stamp customers. Whenever someone came through and said they only had a certain amount they could spend, I always made it a point to reach for the healthy stuff first and rang it up before I went for any junk food or stuff like cookies they had in their basket.

Tide1986 · May 18, 2016

92tide said:
what do you mean systematically rely on help? there are plenty of folks who have been on some form of assistance their whole life, but who have also worked hard their whole lives and raised (or attempted to raise) families (and in many cases that includes other people's kids). they have plenty to be proud of and feel good about.

I mean precisely what I said. And I did not say that people can't feel good or proud about something. They just shouldn't feel good or proud about perpetually relying on others, especially when their choices compound their need.

92tide · May 18, 2016

Tide1986 said:
I mean precisely what I said. And I did not say that people can't feel good or proud about something. They just shouldn't feel good or proud about perpetually relying on others, especially when their choices compound their need.

ill edit my earlier comment, they have plenty to be proud of and feel good about, and nothing to be ashamed of

Tide1986 · May 18, 2016

92tide said:
ill edit my earlier comment, they have plenty to be proud of and feel good about, and nothing to be ashamed of

Alas, accountability is a relentless master...assuming accountability is part of one's world view.

92tide · May 18, 2016

Tide1986 said:
Alas, accountability is a relentless master...assuming accountability is part of one's world view.

alas indeed

Bamabuzzard · May 19, 2016

92tide said:
what do you mean systematically rely on help? there are plenty of folks who have been on some form of assistance their whole life, but who have also worked hard their whole lives and raised (or attempted to raise) families (and in many cases that includes other people's kids). they have plenty to be proud of and feel good about.

People like this I have no problem with. Everybody can't be doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. As long as someone is making a good faith effort (emphasis on good faith effort) then they should be given assistance if they need it. There are millions of people like this who are currently on some form of the dole.

But these aren't the millions that are the problem. It's the millions who are manipulating the loopholes in the system or just outright scamming the system that need to be addressed. I blame our government for not making an effort to weed out those who fall into this category. Here's a good example (on a local level) that is a snapshot of how our government programs fail the taxpayers on a daily basis. A few months ago our area (northwest louisiana) was hit with massive flood waters. The state of Louisiana in their efforts to "help" added an additional $500 to those already on government assistance for next "x" amount of months. Part of the process in how they did this was setup a "station" in downtown shreveport for those effected by the flood to come down and get their $500 voucher. The voucher was intended for people who were in areas impacted by the flood. But here's how it played out. They simply handed a $500 voucher to whoever was in line. There wasn't any verification controls put in place to ensure those who the funds were intended for were the only ones who received it. It was just a free for all. Later that week it was revealed that they gave out over 1.2 million dollars in vouchers and much of that went to people who weren't supposed to get them. But things like this are common practice for governmental programs. Pitiful oversight, layers of waste and not a care in the world to fix it.

92tide · May 19, 2016

Bamabuzzard said:
People like this I have no problem with. Everybody can't be doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc. As long as someone is making a good faith effort (emphasis on good faith effort) then they should be given assistance if they need it. There are millions of people like this who are currently on some form of the dole.

But these aren't the millions that are the problem. It's the millions who are manipulating the loopholes in the system or just outright scamming the system that need to be addressed. I blame our government for not making an effort to weed out those who fall into this category. Here's a good example (on a local level) that is a snapshot of how our government programs fail the taxpayers on a daily basis. A few months ago our area (northwest louisiana) was hit with massive flood waters. The state of Louisiana in their efforts to "help" added an additional $500 to those already on government assistance for next "x" amount of months. Part of the process in how they did this was setup a "station" in downtown shreveport for those effected by the flood to come down and get their $500 voucher. The voucher was intended for people who were in areas impacted by the flood. But here's how it played out. They simply handed a $500 voucher to whoever was in line. There wasn't any verification controls put in place to ensure those who the funds were intended for were the only ones who received it. It was just a free for all. Later that week it was revealed that they gave out over 1.2 million dollars in vouchers and much of that went to people who weren't supposed to get them. But things like this are common practice for governmental programs. Pitiful oversight, layers of waste and not a care in the world to fix it.

fraud needs to be rooted out in all of these instances, but what seems to always happen, is the fraud/abuse cases (e.g. the welfare queen) are presented as the norm and as a reason to remove all benefits. it also promotes the stereotyping of poor people as lazy moochers and crooks who are just out for a free lunch.

Bamabuzzard · May 19, 2016

92tide said:
fraud needs to be rooted out in all of these instances, but what seems to always happen, is the fraud/abuse cases (e.g. the welfare queen) are presented as the norm and as a reason to remove all benefits. it also promotes the stereotyping of poor people as lazy moochers and crooks who are just out for a free lunch.

We make the mistake of going to extremes on both sides of this issue. Are all poor people lazy and simply out to get a freebie? No. But we do have a major problem with our system that allows literally millions to manipulate and steal taxpayer dollars. The answer isn't removing all benefits to all recipients of government assistance. That's stupid. But on the other side of the coin to think that the level of fraud and manipulation is immaterial and shouldn't cause us to make an attempt to fix the holes in our system is just as stupid.

92tide · May 19, 2016

Bamabuzzard said:
We make the mistake of going to extremes on both sides of this issue. Are all poor people lazy and simply out to get a freebie? No. But we do have a major problem with our system that allows literally millions to manipulate and steal taxpayer dollars. The answer isn't removing all benefits to all recipients of government assistance. That's stupid. But on the other side of the coin to think that the level of fraud and manipulation is immaterial and shouldn't cause us to make an attempt to fix the holes in our system is just as stupid.

i don't think the level of fraud and manipulation is immaterial, but i also think it is routinely overstated in part in an effort to remove government programs that provide aid/assistance.

i think we should put a lot of effort into fixing the holes in our system and minimizing fraud.

bamachile · May 19, 2016

Nice to see some middle ground appearing. Haven't seen this much harmony since somebody passed around the Northern Lights at the drum circle before the Phish concert.

Bodhisattva · May 19, 2016

92tide said:
i think we should put a lot of effort into fixing the holes in our system and minimizing fraud.

Agreed, but I don't see that happening considering the nature of bureaucracy. The purpose is to spend money, and quickly; there is far less concern on how money is spent. In my program, we have funding trickle down to us several times a year ..... with the threat that if this money is not obligated asap it will be taken away and our budget reduced. And there will be hell to pay if that happens. At the end of the fiscal year we buy a lot of crap. Spending money wisely is not in the job description unfortunately.

ETA: I don't know what the numbers are as far as welfare fraud (and I wouldn't trust the government to report anything accurately anyway), but I have no doubt the numbers and percentage are unacceptably high.

92tide · May 19, 2016

bamachile said:
Nice to see some middle ground appearing. Haven't seen this much harmony since somebody passed around the Northern Lights at the drum circle before the Phish concert.

Tide1986 · May 19, 2016

Bamabuzzard said:
We make the mistake of going to extremes on both sides of this issue. Are all poor people lazy and simply out to get a freebie? No. But we do have a major problem with our system that allows literally millions to manipulate and steal taxpayer dollars. The answer isn't removing all benefits to all recipients of government assistance. That's stupid. But on the other side of the coin to think that the level of fraud and manipulation is immaterial and shouldn't cause us to make an attempt to fix the holes in our system is just as stupid.

Part of the answer may be a lifetime limit on benefits. It's supposed to be a safety net, not a way of life.

Jon · May 19, 2016

Bodhisattva said:
Agreed, but I don't see that happening considering the nature of bureaucracy. The purpose is to spend money, and quickly; there is far less concern on how money is spent. In my program, we have funding trickle down to us several times a year ..... with the threat that if this money is not obligated asap it will be taken away and our budget reduced. And there will be hell to pay if that happens. At the end of the fiscal year we buy a lot of crap. Spending money wisely is not in the job description unfortunately.

ETA: I don't know what the numbers are as far as welfare fraud (and I wouldn't trust the government to report anything accurately anyway), but I have no doubt the numbers and percentage are unacceptably high.

FWIW, I work for a fortune 500 and the bolded section is no different for me. I was actually in trouble last quarter for not spending my entire travel budget even though I didn't need it.

92tide · May 19, 2016

Jon said:
FWIW, I work for a fortune 500 and the bolded section is no different for me. I was actually in trouble last quarter for not spending my entire travel budget even though I didn't need it.

you should have taken a business trip down to porsche hq

Tide1986 · May 19, 2016

Jon said:
FWIW, I work for a fortune 500 and the bolded section is no different for me. I was actually in trouble last quarter for not spending my entire travel budget even though I didn't need it.

That is not how it works in my company.

"Powerful" pictures of poverty in America

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