Colorado State's pitch to the Big 12

uafanataum

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How well woul Colorad State do in the Big12? Would they go over their for the financial benefits and ne a bottom team, or could they shake things up.
 

TideEngineer08

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I don't think it can be a foregone conclusion anymore that a team such as Colorado State couldn't come into a P5 conference and do well.

I was really critical of TCU and Utah when they entered the Pac 10/Big 12. They struggled early on, and I touted that as proof these mid-major programs were getting too much love for going undefeated against weak schedules. I still think that's true... but I no longer think it is a given that such a program couldn't blossom into a true P5 program if given access to P5 resources. Utah hasn't won the Pac 12 yet, but they've grown into a competitor in that league. We know what TCU has done over the past couple of years. So its possible. Colorado State is already building a new football stadium, albeit on the small side. They would bring the Denver market into play, one that the Big 12 lost with Colorado's exit. IMO, they are not such a far fetched addition.
 

DollarTaker

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Lets just bring in Oklahoma and Texas to the West and move Bama and the barn to the East, move Mizzu to the West and bring MSU to the East. Drop 1 non conference game and East only plays East and West only plays West until the conf. championship.
 

KrAzY3

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The truth is the Big 12 doesn't have that many good options left. There was a point in time in which Clemson and FSU seemed possible (both were upset with the ACC's basketball friendly deal), but now only BYU is left in terms of programs that would bring some prestige with them.

The Big 12 is in a weird place with no network though, so the otherwise smart moves of adding Cincinnati and UCF are more questionable. Do they want to boost the football brand anymore? If they try to rebuild the Southwest Conference and add Houston what would the point of that be? Likewise the addition of Colorado St. would be nothing more than a declaration they just wanted to get to 12 teams and didn't care who they added.

The smartest additions might be Memphis and BYU. Memphis appears willing to buy their way in, so they are going to bring bags of money with them, but they also would boost the basketball brand of the conference without being that much of a threat to trip up the big boys in football. Memphis has been trying to find a way to buy their way in (via FedEx) to a major conference, and this is their chance. They'll basically pay out enough to make it worth the other school's while to take Memphis (by sponsoring the title game for example). BYU stands out because they are not the little brother program in the state. Utah has risen in prominence but BYU is still the most visible athletic department in the state. This also would create an interesting religious institution thing going on, and since the Big 12 would very much like to get Notre Dame, perhaps eventually the inclusion of protestant and Mormon institutions could help that pitch.

Considering the programs that the Big 12 lost, (Texas A&M, Nebraska and Oklahoma), and the two they missed out on (Clemson and FSU), all those other options seem rather underwhelming. I can't imagine any of the possibilities being strong enough to hold the conference together in their own right (Clemson and FSU would have been), so the fate would still rest with Oklahoma and Texas I suppose, but the right two schools should buy the conference some time.
 

lowend

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And in all of this, West Virginia is hanging out like the no-toothed hillbilly cousin. They never should have made that move.
 

Redwood Forrest

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And in all of this, West Virginia is hanging out like the no-toothed hillbilly cousin. They never should have made that move.
They have sucked since going P5. But the real problem in B12 is they are a day late and a dollar short. They should have grabbed Louisville and Rutgers when they had the chance. If they (Texas) had not been so greedy they would still have at least Mizzouri and Texas A&M and maybe even Nebraska and Colorado. They shot themselves in the foot by allowing Texas to run the show.
 

TideEngineer08

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And in all of this, West Virginia is hanging out like the no-toothed hillbilly cousin. They never should have made that move.
They had no choice. The Big East was being picked apart and was going to lose its BCS status. The ACC had no interest in adding them because of academics (nor did the SEC, because of market value).
 

81usaf92

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It has to be irritating to the rest of the Big 12 members that Texas is the main driver.
FIFY

Texas should've made peace with Mizzou and Colorado before things really started to roll. Nebraska and aTm were lost causes because Nebraska was convinced that their transition would be easy to the Big 10 and aTm was tired of the burnt cow crap.

Another misstep was allowing nd and ACC getting together. Nd could've saved the big 12 with the same deal instead of partnering with the acc.
 
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Redwood Forrest

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I'll call this before and after:

Utah..... first 5 yrs in P12 = .587
Utah.... last 5 yrs in MWC = .769
that is a minus .182

TCU ......first 4 yrs in B12 = .725
TCU .....last 4 yrs in MWC = .904
that is a minus .179

W Va ....first 4 yrs in B12 = .510
W Va ...last 4 yrs in MWC = .712
that is a minus .202

Houston, BYU and anyone else is going to face losing more than they are used to losing when they play P5 every week. In a couple more years we can chart Louisville, Rutgers and Maryland.
 

KrAzY3

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Another misstep was allowing nd and ACC getting together. Nd could've saved the big 12 with the same deal instead of partnering with the acc.
I know the Big 12 wanted Notre Dame, but I would assume as a full partner. I'm not sure how they could have fit in otherwise and the 9 conference game/round robin thing if anything made the Big 12 less attractive in that regard. Notre Dame doesn't want to play a lot of conference games, they like schedule flexibility. So, I'm not sure there was ever middle ground there.

Generally speaking though, I agree in that a more aggressive Big 12 might have blown up the ACC (adding Clemson and FSU) leaving Notre Dame with fewer options but instead they made pretty questionable additions. This all seems to be a symptom of their dysfunction, I'm not even sure at this point that Texas or Oklahoma really want. Do they want to stay? To go? Do they want to have a network? Do they want to expand or not? Who knows? Only non P5 teams would want to deal with that nonsense.

Houston, BYU and anyone else is going to face losing more than they are used to losing when they play P5 every week. In a couple more years we can chart Louisville, Rutgers and Maryland.
Agreed, a big part of my arguments about SoS and all of that is the direct correlation to wins and losses. Every now and then a program can manage to step up to a level in keeping with the new conference but most of the time they just struggle. I'd expect the same for any of these possible additions, though BYU stands a better chance of having a respectable winning percentages than some of these programs.
 

TideEngineer08

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I'll call this before and after:

Utah..... first 5 yrs in P12 = .587
Utah.... last 5 yrs in MWC = .769
that is a minus .182

TCU ......first 4 yrs in B12 = .725
TCU .....last 4 yrs in MWC = .904
that is a minus .179

W Va ....first 4 yrs in B12 = .510
W Va ...last 4 yrs in MWC = .712
that is a minus .202

Houston, BYU and anyone else is going to face losing more than they are used to losing when they play P5 every week. In a couple more years we can chart Louisville, Rutgers and Maryland.
Yes. But these numbers are a bit misleading. Utah and TCU have had good seasons lately after starting off very poorly. They've built themselves up and are competing well in their respective leagues. Now, I'll grant you that the domination they enjoyed in the MWC isn't likely to reoccur. But I didn't even think they were capable of competing. Clearly they are.

I think West Virginia is more of a function of coaching. Look, West Virginia was a big time program before all the realignment carousel. They competed as an Independent before the Big East. They have the most all time wins of any program that doesn't have a national championship and they've come close several times. So I think their issues are that when the carousel stopped spinning this last go around, all of their old time friends - Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Virginia Tech, Penn State, etc. - programs that they had played for many years, had a P5 home and they didn't. They are a small state without a major media market and a University without a prestigious academic reputation. Fortunately for them, the Big 12 was desperate. But it's not a great situation for them, being out on an island far away from everyone else. I also think Dana Holgorson is overrated as a HC.

I honestly don't think the Big 12 has any good options. As Krazy pointed out, they missed on FSU/Clemson. They missed on Louisville/Pittsburgh. This is all because of Texas and now that OU has supposedly grown a pair and wants to lead, nothing good is left. Teams like Colorado State/BYU/Houston/Cincinnati bring some good to the table, but a lot of negative. But Andy Staples does have a good suggestion. Don't add any of these teams now. Go out and win a few championships and then when the media rights expire the next time in 10 years or so, they would be in a better position to go out and get an FSU/Clemson or even someone from the PAC 12.
 
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81usaf92

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I know the Big 12 wanted Notre Dame, but I would assume as a full partner. I'm not sure how they could have fit in otherwise and the 9 conference game/round robin thing if anything made the Big 12 less attractive in that regard. Notre Dame doesn't want to play a lot of conference games, they like schedule flexibility. So, I'm not sure there was ever middle ground there.

Generally speaking though, I agree in that a more aggressive Big 12 might have blown up the ACC (adding Clemson and FSU) leaving Notre Dame with fewer options but instead they made pretty questionable additions. This all seems to be a symptom of their dysfunction, I'm not even sure at this point that Texas or Oklahoma really want. Do they want to stay? To go? Do they want to have a network? Do they want to expand or not? Who knows? Only non P5 teams would want to deal with that nonsense.


Agreed, a big part of my arguments about SoS and all of that is the direct correlation to wins and losses. Every now and then a program can manage to step up to a level in keeping with the new conference but most of the time they just struggle. I'd expect the same for any of these possible additions, though BYU stands a better chance of having a respectable winning percentages than some of these programs.
Notre dame and the burnt cow would have never gotten along in a full partnership, but if notre dame extended the same deal they did with the acc then expansion of the big 12 would've never been an issue because I'm pretty sure that 2 of their agreed games would've been Oklahoma and Texas every year. Even though notre dame isn't this great team consistently it probably gives the big 12 an advantage over the acc and PAC 12 in sos every year, but now it does the opposite since the acc got them
 

TideEngineer08

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Notre dame and the burnt cow would have never gotten along in a full partnership, but if notre dame extended the same deal they did with the acc then expansion of the big 12 would've never been an issue because I'm pretty sure that 2 of their agreed games would've been Oklahoma and Texas every year. Even though notre dame isn't this great team consistently it probably gives the big 12 an advantage over the acc and PAC 12 in sos every year, but now it does the opposite since the acc got them
I agree that was a huge blow to the Big 12. But that is Texas. They have no desire to be proactive because they don't need to be. But this is a horrible way to conduct yourself as a member of a league. You should be looking out for what is best for the league, not yourself alone. For example, back in the days of Coach Bryant, when Alabama largely was the SEC, the Sugar Bowl wanted to lock in the SEC's champion each year like the Rose did with the Big Ten/Pac 10. Alabama didn't need that because one of the things Coach Bryant enjoyed was Independence come bowl time. We could go where the best matchup was (outside of the Rose). We played in the Sugar, Orange, or Cotton based upon what suited us. Coach Bryant decided to side with the Sugar because it benefited the league as a whole, even if it wouldn't necessarily always be in Alabama's best interest. Texas has not conducted itself in this manner and the SWC and now the Big 12 has suffered because of it.
 

Redwood Forrest

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Yes. But these numbers are a bit misleading. Utah and TCU have had good seasons lately after starting off very poorly. They've built themselves up and are competing well in their respective leagues. Now, I'll grant you that the domination they enjoyed in the MWC isn't likely to reoccur. But I didn't even think they were capable of competing. Clearly they are.

I think West Virginia is more of a function of coaching. Look, West Virginia was a big time program before all the realignment carousel. They competed as an Independent before the Big East. They have the most all time wins of any program that doesn't have a national championship and they've come close several times. So I think their issues are that when the carousel stopped spinning this last go around, all of their old time friends - Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Virginia Tech, Penn State, etc. - programs that they had played for many years, had a P5 home and they didn't. They are a small state without a major media market and a University without a prestigious academic reputation. Fortunately for them, the Big 12 was desperate. But it's not a great situation for them, being out on an island far away from everyone else. I also think Dana Holgorson is overrated as a HC.

I honestly don't think the Big 12 has any good options. As Krazy pointed out, they missed on FSU/Clemson. They missed on Louisville/Pittsburgh. This is all because of Texas and now that OU has supposedly grown a pair and wants to lead, nothing good is left. Teams like Colorado State/BYU/Houston/Cincinnati bring some good to the table, but a lot of negative. But Andy Staples does have a good suggestion. Don't add any of these teams now. Go out and win a few championships and then when the media rights expire the next time in 10 years or so, they would be in a better position to go out and get an FSU/Clemson or even someone from the PAC 12.
Well, the stats are the facts. I don't know how they could be misleading. It is what it is.

I agree Utah and TCU have made themselves a player but Utah will never be the equal of USC and UCLA one they regain their place atop the league.
 

TideMan09

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Don't y'all know Texas A&M is glad they left the Big 12 when they did & jumped to greener grass in the SEC..Once Texas A&M gets their stuff together they can & will be a force in college football or can be since joining The SEC..

Make no mistake The Big 12 Farm belongs to Old Mc'Texas & anything doing with Big 12 Football politically runs through Austin as much as the rest of the conference will never publicly admit that fact..It's all ok Big 12 cause the rest of college football already knows only the opinion of one school really matters in the end The Big 12..
 

KrAzY3

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Oklahoma is still in the Big 12.
Not if they have any say in the matter, heh. Funny how I could both think they were in the conference and outside of it at the same time.

Seriously though I meant to type Missouri. I'm not sure people realize how significant Missouri was to the old Big 8, they were not really a minor loss. I believe they were the biggest Big 8 state and housed the headquarters of the conference.
 

Redwood Forrest

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Not if they have any say in the matter, heh. Funny how I could both think they were in the conference and outside of it at the same time.

Seriously though I meant to type Missouri. I'm not sure people realize how significant Missouri was to the old Big 8, they were not really a minor loss. I believe they were the biggest Big 8 state and housed the headquarters of the conference.
I assumed you meant Missouri. Yes, they were a player most years in the Big 8. Of course we have to go way back into the 60' 70's and 80's. I seem to remember the pecking order as Oklahoma/Nebraska, Colorado/Missouri, and the other four.
 

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