defense secretary ends pentagon's ban on transgendered troops

Bama Reb said:

"My day" was long before DADT. The only berets worn in the Army were green and terrorists were shot on sight. We didn't have an illegal immigration problem and most cars still had chrome bumpers and round headlights. Pay telephones still occupied street corners and drug stores, and most phone numbers still had letter prefixes.
Shall I go on about ''my day''?

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No because it was a different time, and that's the point. Society has changed and so has the military. Whether the decision to allow LGBT service members to openly identify themselves is benifictial or detrimental to society and the military is a personal opinion. And that was not the point of me responding to your post originally.

The only reason I brought up 2010 decision on the repeal is because you think that this decision is going to lead to hazing and discrimination of transsexuals in the military. I was merely pointing out that it is probably not going to be the case because of how smoothly the military transitioned after the DADT.

There are no longer any norms in any part of life/society. We are now accepting any thing any one except foundational beliefs. Doesn't bode well from my perspective but then again no one cares what I think because I'm old school and obviously out of touch and bigoted.


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ValuJet said:

The next time a Major Hassan goes berserk on one of our nation's military bases, will he (or she) target the BLT soldiers?

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There is so much packed into this thread I simply don't understand.

What is a bacon, lettuce and tomato soldier?

Chukker Veteran said:

There is so much packed into this thread I simply don't understand.

What is a bacon, lettuce and tomato soldier?

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One that goes around saying ''eat me''.

dvldog said:

There are no longer any norms in any part of life/society. We are now accepting any thing any one except foundational beliefs. Doesn't bode well from my perspective but then again no one cares what I think because I'm old school and obviously out of touch and bigoted.


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Imo that's to the detriment of our society. If you have no norms, no standards and 'anything goes', you have nothing on which to base your laws. Without these things, you have neither effective law enforcement nor leadership.
There is nothing to hold it together which results in something only slightly above chaos. If history teaches us anything, it is that effective leadership and discipline are a must in any military unit. I cite the example of Desert Storm (Iraq/Kuwait) in which our troops were able to defeat the Republican Guards in short order.
This was accomplished so quickly and effectively because of the Iraqi leadership structure. Leaders on the ground had no authority to command their troops without orders coming all the way from the top. Without those orders, the field commanders, and thus the troops themselves, didn't have the slightest idea of what to do in any given combat situation. Hence they threw their weapons to the ground and ran for home.
If our own military isn't held to a given set of standards (discipline), then they will also be subject to similar chaos when a combat situation arises.

Those that don't learn by history are doomed to repeat it.

Bama Reb said:

"My day" was long before DADT. The only berets worn in the Army were green and terrorists were shot on sight. We didn't have an illegal immigration problem and most cars still had chrome bumpers and round headlights. Pay telephones still occupied street corners and drug stores, and most phone numbers still had letter prefixes.
Shall I go on about ''my day''?

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Don't forget in those days, Alabama's football team was segregated.

Chukker Veteran said:

Don't forget in those days, Alabama's football team was segregated.

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As I'm sure so were some schools. The one I attended (in Illinois) wasn't. More to the point, neither were the military units in which I served. That, sir, renders your point moot.

Bama Reb said:

As I'm sure so were some schools. The one I attended (in Illinois) wasn't. More to the point, neither were the military units in which I served. That, sir, renders your point moot.

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Maybe i misunderstood your posts. I thought you were waxing nostalgic for the good old days. I was suggesting there were some things back then that needed correcting, such as treating people of color equally. I used the Bama football team as an example to illustrate my point. Rather than my point being moot, perhaps you simply didn't understand what I was getting at.

Chukker Veteran said:

Maybe i misunderstood your posts. I thought you were waxing nostalgic for the good old days. I was suggesting there were some things back then that needed correcting, such as treating people of color equally. I used the Bama football team as an example to illustrate my point. Rather than my point being moot, perhaps you simply didn't understand what I was getting at.

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Perhaps, but are you now suggesting that military policies restricting it's members were something that needed correcting?

Chukker Veteran said:

Maybe i misunderstood your posts. I thought you were waxing nostalgic for the good old days. I was suggesting there were some things back then that needed correcting, such as treating people of color equally. I used the Bama football team as an example to illustrate my point. Rather than my point being moot, perhaps you simply didn't understand what I was getting at.

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What are you getting at? When someone fondly remembers the past, do you always feel compelled to point out something(s) bad? It seems so self-righteous.

Bama Reb said:

Perhaps, but are you now suggesting that military policies restricting it's members were something that needed correcting?

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I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. We both know the military was integrated many years before the general society was, and I'm glad it was. I hope you have a happy fourth of July.

Relayer said:

What are you getting at? When someone fondly remembers the past, do you always feel compelled to point out something(s) bad? It seems so self-righteous.

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Self righteous? Good grief.

92tide said:

no more self righteous than implying that folks who are different are detrimental to society

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Society? No. Military? Perhaps. Under the circumstances, that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

Have a Happy Independence Day! Were it not for those who risked their lives, properties and personal fortunes back then, we would not be here today.

92tide said:

no more self-righteous than implying that folks who are different are detrimental to society

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Giving patently mentally ill people access to guns seems foolhardy.

CajunCrimson said:

We don't fight traditional wars any longer. I'm guessing we don't need traditional soldiers either.

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Again, perhaps you're right.

I will say this though. When I enlisted in the US Army in 1967, I was proud to do so. I was equally proud to put on the uniform, take up arms and defend my country in battle. In doing so, I knew that I was accepting certain risks, up to and including forfeiting my very life in it's defense as well as that of my fellow soldiers.
That said, we of varied races, creeds, nationalities and religions had to put our lives in the hands of those with which we served. We ate together, slept in close proximity to each other, trained and socialized together. We were men, we were soldiers. We all shared pictures of our parents and siblings as well as those of our wives and girlfriends. There wasn't a man among us who wore women's clothing or shared pictures of his husband or boyfriend. Had one done so, it is entirely likely that he would not have returned from a mission.
It's plain and simple. You can either trust the man next to you or you can't. I cant make it any clearer than that.

Had today's standards, or lack thereof, been in place back then, I would have probably gone to Canada to avoid the draft.

Bama Reb said:

Again, perhaps you're right.

I will say this though. When I enlisted in the US Army in 1967, I was proud to do so. I was equally proud to put on the uniform, take up arms and defend my country in battle. In doing so, I knew that I was accepting certain risks, up to and including forfeiting my very life in it's defense as well as that of my fellow soldiers.
That said, we of varied races, creeds, nationalities and religions had to put our lives in the hands of those with which we served. We ate together, slept in close proximity to each other, trained and socialized together. We were men, we were soldiers. We all shared pictures of our parents and siblings as well as those of our wives and girlfriends. There wasn't a man among us who wore women's clothing or shared pictures of his husband or boyfriend. Had one done so, it is entirely likely that he would not have returned from a mission.
It's plain and simple. You can either trust the man next to you or you can't. I cant make it any clearer than that.

Had today's standards, or lack thereof, been in place back then, I would have probably gone to Canada to avoid the draft.

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You do realize military women wear the same uniform that men do.

The military has always been the Guinea pig for societal change. Whether it be blacks, women, gays, and now transsexuals. The only thing I see different between the military and civilian views of change is that the military doesn't whine and try to fight the inevitable change. I understand you don't agree with this change because of your military generation, and for the most part I don't either in mine, but I just don't see how there is going to be this mass exodus of servicemen and this public shaming of those who are different when neither of those happened with the DADT repeal.

81usaf92 said:

You do realize military women wear the same uniform that men do.

The military has always been the Guinea pig for societal change. Whether it be blacks, women, gays, and now transsexuals. The only thing I see different between the military and civilian views of change is that the military doesn't whine and try to fight the inevitable change.

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Yes, of course. But back then, there were men's units and women's units. The women's units were called WACs.