At least 80 Dead in Terrorist Attack in Nice, France (update, now 84 dead)

81usaf92

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"Why? Because the objective is to defeat our enemies, not redefine them. To defeat the enemy still requires knowing the enemy. Try as he might, Obama is unable to fundamentally transform Sun Tzu."
What president since Reagan really had success against Islamic enemies? Everyone wants to pile on Obama, and he deserves blame for Syria, but I will remind you that it was BUSH's plan to get rid of Sadaam, and that's what started this whole mess in the first place.

The point is. That we have failed for the past 24 years at Middle-Eastern affairs, whether it be by force or diplomacy. So outside of putting pressure on the Saudis, what haven't we done.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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What president since Reagan really had success against Islamic enemies? Everyone wants to pile on Obama, and he deserves blame for Syria, but I will remind you that it was BUSH's plan to get rid of Sadaam, and that's what started this whole mess in the first place.

The point is. That we have failed for the past 24 years at Middle-Eastern affairs, whether it be by force or diplomacy. So outside of putting pressure on the Saudis, what haven't we done.
I hope not indiscriminate bombing - out of frustration or misguided machismo...
 

Gr8hope

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What president since Reagan really had success against Islamic enemies? Everyone wants to pile on Obama, and he deserves blame for Syria, but I will remind you that it was BUSH's plan to get rid of Sadaam, and that's what started this whole mess in the first place.
I know a lot has changed in the last 7 years. We were fighting them over there and they were too busy hiding in caves or trying to survive in deserts to be running all over Europe and being resettled here to organize and kill so many Westerners.
Some say what is happening now is the result of anger for those years when we took the fight to them. I say it is the result of a limp wrist-ed sympathizer who diminished the efforts and the rules of engagement and meddled in the affairs of countries who had their radicals controlled. Would that include Iraq? Maybe, and if so Bush shares the blame for that but the situation there was stabilized until Obama surrendered control. It doesn't matter who we blame, the situation has spiraled out of control very quickly over the last few years.
 

TIDE-HSV

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I know a lot has changed in the last 7 years. We were fighting them over there and they were too busy hiding in caves or trying to survive in deserts to be running all over Europe and being resettled here to organize and kill so many Westerners.
Some say what is happening now is the result of anger for those years when we took the fight to them. I say it is the result of a limp wrist-ed sympathizer who diminished the efforts and the rules of engagement and meddled in the affairs of countries who had their radicals controlled. Would that include Iraq? Maybe, and if so Bush shares the blame for that but the situation there was stabilized until Obama surrendered control. It doesn't matter who we blame, the situation has spiraled out of control very quickly over the last few years.
Unfortunately, that analysis presumes that we could ever have controlled the Middle East as it's presently constituted. We couldn't, we can't and we never can. In fact, our efforts, just as the British, French, etc., before us, have just made the situation much worse. What we need is a severe case of "butt-outski", which is just one of the reasons I'm voting for Johnson...
 

NationalTitles18

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That depends upon if you define it strictly in terms of legal responsibility or the way shrinks do. Someone could have looked at this guy as a late teen and predicted that, somewhere along the way, he was going to kill someone. It wouldn't take genius. All I was pointing out that we've reached the point where "bad deed + 'Muhammad' = Islamist Terrorist." This, whether or not there's any evidence in that direction. Legally insane or not, this individual seems to have been a violent homicidal sociopath. Oh, I knew my post wouldn't be popular here...
I tried to convey they I agree with you up to a point and with some caveats. Perhaps I didn't convey so well.

Looks like '86 was on to something in this particular incidence...

LINK
And this is becoming quickly the M.O. San Bernardino (probably not the best example, but I do think he hastened plans), Orlando, Nice. Take someone on the edge and give them a little push. Requires fewer resources and less chance of getting caught but still accomplishes the goal.

I hope not indiscriminate bombing - out of frustration or misguided machismo...
We can't become the very thing we hate.

Unfortunately, that analysis presumes that we could ever have controlled the Middle East as it's presently constituted. We couldn't, we can't and we never can. In fact, our efforts, just as the British, French, etc., before us, have just made the situation much worse. What we need is a severe case of "butt-outski", which is just one of the reasons I'm voting for Johnson...
Agreed.
 

81usaf92

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I know a lot has changed in the last 7 years. We were fighting them over there and they were too busy hiding in caves or trying to survive in deserts to be running all over Europe and being resettled here to organize and kill so many Westerners.
.
Al-Qaida and ISIS are two vastly different things. Al-Qaida was a reaction to western influence in Middle East. Isis happened because Sadaam was ousted and is an apocalyptic group that was allowed to practice freely because of it.
Some say what is happening now is the result of anger for those years when we took the fight to them .
Who is saying that. ISIS is an apocalyptic group that believes it is the herald of the Islamic apocalypse. That part of wahhabism has existed in the Arab community for ages. The difference is that Iraq is a hyper radicalized area. Sadaam prevented these nuts from wild because they were a threat to his rule. Look I know its hard to swallow that G.W. and Tony Blair are to blame for ISIS, but its the truth.

I say it is the result of a limp wrist-ed sympathizer who diminished the efforts and the rules of engagement and meddled in the affairs of countries who had their radicals controlled. Would that include Iraq? .
Well you are going to have to answer the question " Where was ISIS during Sadaam's reign?". Did Obama cause ISIS? No, but He hasn't helped the situation.

. Would that include Iraq? Maybe, and if so Bush shares the blame for that but the situation there was stabilized until Obama surrendered control. It doesn't matter who we blame, the situation has spiraled out of control very quickly over the last few years.
The situation in Iraq was far from stabilized. The only thing that stabilizes that country is constant oppression. Personally, I think it would be more beneficial for us if we tell the Persians to take back the parking lot, and us stop meddling around with the Middle East
 
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crimsonaudio

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My point is there is absolutely no evidence of that at all. What we've done is flip the presumption to guilty in advance, if a killer grew up in a Muslim household, even if he had not much sympathy for religion at all...
Stereotypes exist for a reason - it's generally a pretty safe assumption...
 

NationalTitles18

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Al-Qaida and ISIS are two vastly different things. Al-Qaida was a reaction to western influence in Middle East. Isis happened because Sadaam was ousted and is an apocalyptic group that was allowed to practice freely because of it.


Who is saying that. ISIS is an apocalyptic group that believes it is the herald of the Islamic apocalypse. That part of wahhabism has existed in the Arab community for ages. The difference is that Iraq is a hyper radicalized area. Sadaam prevented these nuts from wild because they were a threat to his rule. Look I know its hard to swallow that G.W. and Tony Blair are to blame for ISIS, but its the truth.



Well you are going to have to answer the question " Where was ISIS during Sadaam's reign?". Did Obama cause ISIS? No, but He hasn't helped the situation.



The situation in Iraq was far from stabilized. The only thing that stabilizes that country is constant oppression. Personally, I think it would be more beneficial for us if we tell the Persians to take back the parking lot, and us stop meddling around with the Middle East
Our problem is that we view al Qaeda and ISIS as 2 diametrically opposed entities. Their only differences deal mainly with the methods and timing of the same overall goals. Democrats and Republicans and several foreign governments over quite literally the last 100 years are to blame for the current situation. Yes, that includes both Bush and Obama.

Fighting them over there hasn't worked and neither has more or less supporting uprisings against dictators we don't like. There has to be a third way. As difficult and precarious as it may be, Turkey may actually hold the key to the problem.
 

crimsonaudio

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Sorry, but I can't port that over to "deport all Muslims" or even "deny all Muslims" entrance...
Not sure where you made that jump from - I never said anything like that, nor did you mention that in what I quoted. I was merely pointing out that a terrorist with a muslim background would automatically be assumed to be an islamic terrorist since about 99.99% of all terrorism is islamic now.
 

Tide1986

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My point is there is absolutely no evidence of that at all. What we've done is flip the presumption to guilty in advance, if a killer grew up in a Muslim household, even if he had not much sympathy for religion at all...
I understood your point. Nevertheless, one can lead a pious life or a debauched life and, in either case, reach for eternal salvation with a final suicidal act. But of course, I'm not indicating that is the case with the Nice terrorist.
 

TIDE-HSV

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I understood your point. Nevertheless, one can lead a pious life or a debauched life and, in either case, reach for eternal salvation with a final suicidal act. But of course, I'm not indicating that is the case with the Nice terrorist.
I agree and I think that, in this particular case, you were right. As long as the tantalizing prospect is held out that going out in a blaze of glory will land the virgins, it will be a problem...
 

bamacon

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The big problem is that whatever policy you embrace short of confrontation will result in attacks by the supporters of the global chalipate. We've tried ignoring, they attacked. We've taken their side, they attacked. We've tried introducing democratic governance, they attacked. When CNN and Reuters and others do polls that show UBL with 80% approval rating in the Middle East you've got issues. It's interesting to see how the President says we should wait for all the facts and how these acts don't represent a great religion or reflect what other Muslims believe, but he doesn't extend that same fair call towards police officers.


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Gr8hope

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Nice attack: Why the terrorists are winning the intelligence war

http://atimes.com/2016/07/why-the-terrorists-are-winning-the-intelligence-war/


Western European Muslims fear the terrorists more than they fear the police. The West will remain vulnerable to mass terror attacks until the balance of fear shifts in the other direction.

The way to win the war is to frighten the larger community of Muslims who passively support terror by action or inaction–frighten them so badly that they will inform on family members. Frightening the larger Muslim population in the West does not require a great deal of effort: a few thousand deportations would do. Western intelligence services do not even have to deport the right people; the wrong people know who they are, and so do many of their neighbors. The ensuing conversation is an easy one to have. “I understand that your nephew is due for deportation, Hussein, and I believe you when you tell me that he has done nothing wrong. I might be able to help you. But you have to help me. Give me something I can use–and don’t waste my time by making things up, or I swear that I’ll deport you, too. If you don’t have any information, then find out who does.”


The article points to ruthless generals who fought in the civil war and left the Southern people with nothing. It says to fight as the terrorist fight and take it to their friends and families. It offers lessons in history as proof it can work.
 

81usaf92

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The article points to ruthless generals who fought in the civil war and left the Southern people with nothing. It says to fight as the terrorist fight and take it to their friends and families. It offers lessons in history as proof it can work.
Yeah but that kinda stuff can just as easily result in this: (I cant link the article due to the graphic nature of the body)
The threat to Moscow now seemed desperate. Many Soviet citizens were mobilised to build the city’s defences. Many volunteered for more dangerous duties. Eighteen year old Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya was still in college in Moscow when she volunteered to join a guerrilla group that would operate behind enemy lines.
The Partisan unit that she was operating with was split into small groups with orders to burn down the villages where the German troops were sheltering. An attempt by Zoya’s group to burn down the village of Petrisheva on the 27th November failed when their leader was captured and killed. Zoya returned alone the following night but was found and betrayed by one of the locals. She was then tortured by the Germans attempting to discover her comrades. According to one report she was tortured all night so badly that a German officer in the next room was unable bear the sound of it.
Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya remained defiant to the end. She only gave her name as Tanya and named no-one else. The villagers who were forced to watch her execution on the 29th were to witness her remarkable final declaration:
You hang me now but I am not alone. There are 200 million of us. You won’t hang everybody. I shall be avenged. Soldiers! Surrender before it is too late. Victory will be ours.
Their account of what happened did not reach the Soviet press until January 1942. She was declared a Hero of the Soviet Union in February, her story making her one of the legends of the Russian resistance. It was a story that was re-inforced when these German pictures were subsequently captured.
The Soviet army was being humbled by the Germans, and its people in the occupied area were trying to decide between Hitler and Stalin. Some initially came out of the villages and supplied the invading the Germans, and some fought like Zoya did. But when people were getting the famous Nazi treatment, the decision went a little like this:
"the situation is this: we in the forest believe that Communism will at least let us live, but the Germans, with their National Socialism, will either shoot us or starve us to death"
Soviet Partisans
Also the Northern Oppression of the South was more of a tool to eliminate key resources, and break the will of a Southern populace to continue to support a total war. With ISIS, we don't know who pays them or supports them. So misguided attacks and acts of brutality have the same chance of blowing up in our face like it did for the Nazis. And Fwiw, if you can convince a population to support a dictator that just purged 1.9 million of your innocent people 3 years prior, then you have used some very brutal tactics.
 
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TIDE-HSV

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Tidewater

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He's on to some things. However, his history shows gaps. For example, "banana republic" refers to our huge fruit companies' (United Fruit Company and its rivals), which had a habit of meddling in 3rd world countries to insure supply constancy, habit of setting up puppet governments in Central America to protect their plantations...
One check of the US Marine Corps Memorial will illustrate that history.
Haiti 1915-1934, Santo Domingo 1916-1924, etc. etc.
Protecting the United Fruit Company from local government confiscations was certainly not all the USMC did, but they did do a lot of that.
 

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