Video Released in Terence Crutcher’s Killing by Tulsa Police

NationalTitles18

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Just to be clear, I'm not saying the cops did everything right. But to jump to the conclusion that they just shot this guy because he was black is a heck of a stretch. We don't see what happened to lead them to draw weapons on the guy. Maybe they weren't justified in doing that, maybe they were, we just don't know. But once the situation reached that stage, the only thing to do is comply with their commands. Anything else and you are taking a chance on getting shot whatever color you are (and again, some evidence says more likely if you're white).
Real-world statistics:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.22a09fdc95f3

According to the most recent census data, there are nearly 160 million more white people in America than there are black people. White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.
U.S. police officers have shot and killed the exact same number of unarmed white people as they have unarmed black people: 50 each. But because the white population is approximately five times larger than the black population, that means unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.
Those numbers are pretty - and forgive me, no pun intended - black and white. There may be more reasons aside from race including behavior of the "suspect", but it's a very high number comparatively. That implies either blacks have no idea how to act around police, police shoot blacks just for being black, some combination of the two, or something else entirely. In the Brown case it appears he bull rushed the cop after trying to take his gun. Justified. But what are the cops' mindset when they encounter a black person vs a white under similar circumstances? Could this have been handled differently? I honestly don't know because I don't know how it got to this point. I do know we are whistling past the graveyard - literally and figuratively - if we just keep up with more of the same.
 

Special K

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Real-world statistics:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.22a09fdc95f3



Those numbers are pretty - and forgive me, no pun intended - black and white. There may be more reasons aside from race including behavior of the "suspect", but it's a very high number comparatively. That implies either blacks have no idea how to act around police, police shoot blacks just for being black, some combination of the two, or something else entirely. In the Brown case it appears he bull rushed the cop after trying to take his gun. Justified. But what are the cops' mindset when they encounter a black person vs a white under similar circumstances? Could this have been handled differently? I honestly don't know because I don't know how it got to this point. I do know we are whistling past the graveyard - literally and figuratively - if we just keep up with more of the same.
Sorry, but the numbers are not nearly as "black and white" as you claim. This data uses the makeup of the general population to draw its final conclusions. It does not take into account the fact the blacks commit - or are at least accused/convicted of commiting - a vastly disproportionate percentage of crimes, therefore they are stopped/detained/arrested at vastly disproportionate rates to whites. Sure, we can argue about whether than in and of itself is evidence of racial bias - I'm not saying it is or isn't - but once you take into account the number of police stops then data shows that a stop/detainment by police is more likely to result in a shooting if you're white. Here's an article from the NY Times on the study, it's pretty well know at this point....

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/u...e-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=0
 

NationalTitles18

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Sorry, but this data uses the makeup of the general population to draws its final conclusions. It does not take into account the fact the blacks commit - or are at least accused/convicted of commiting - a vastly disproportionate percentage of crimes, therefore they are stopped/detained/arrested at vastly disproportionate rates to whites. Sure, we can argue about whether than in and of itself is evidence of racial bias - I'm not saying it is or isn't - but once you take into account the number of police stops then data shows that a stop/detainment by police is more likely to result in a shooting if you're white. Here's an article from the NY Times on the study, it's pretty well know at this point....

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/u...e-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=0
Exactly: Why are blacks confronted far more often than whites? Why do cops use force more often against blacks? Those things cannot be ignored before reaching the conclusion you seem to be reaching.
 

Special K

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Exactly: Why are blacks confronted far more often than whites? Why do cops use force more often against blacks? Those things cannot be ignored before reaching the conclusion you seem to be reaching.
I'm not reaching any conclusion, I'm simply looking at data. Why are blacks confronted more often than whites? Each side will give you a different answer but the truth is probably in the middle. In some instances, I do believe racial bias is involved, sure. But I also believe the raw stats cannot be ignored - black people do indeed commit disproportionately more crime than white people, so it is a logical conclusion that they would be confronted at a higher rate of course. Personally, I think this is much more related to economics than race but it just so happens that there are many more poor black people (as a percentage) than white people.

But putting all that aside, the fact remains, comply with police orders and you are almost certainly NOT going to be shot - fight out the rest in a legal way after you live through it.
 

Bama Reb

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I think there's another side of this that has yet to be mentioned. There is a war on against cops in this country. They are being called into seemingly routine situations and then being attacked for no other reason than the uniform they wear. Now I'm not going to delve into the racial and political aspect of it, but let it suffice to say that every cop knows that there are targets on their backs, hence their lives are at stake with every call they answer and with every traffic stop they make. Recent events show that they can and have been assaulted when merely sitting in their cars.

From what I see, the guy didn't respond to the officers' commands. Even after being tased he continued to go into his pockets and attempted to reach into his vehicle. They didn't know what he was reaching for or for what reason so they had to assume it was for a weapon. Imo the officers' actions were justified.
 

NationalTitles18

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I think there's another side of this that has yet to be mentioned. There is a war on against cops in this country. They are being called into seemingly routine situations and then being attacked for no other reason than the uniform they wear. Now I'm not going to delve into the racial and political aspect of it, but let it suffice to say that every cop knows that there are targets on their backs, hence their lives are at stake with every call they answer and with every traffic stop they make. Recent events show that they can and have been assaulted when merely sitting in their cars.

From what I see, the guy didn't respond to the officers' commands. Even after being tased he continued to go into his pockets and attempted to reach into his vehicle. They didn't know what he was reaching for or for what reason so they had to assume it was for a weapon. Imo the officers' actions were justified.
Fair point about cops being literally under attack. I'm still not ready to render my judgment on this particular incident, but understanding that - the possibility of an officer being gunned down on a routine call is not a new phenomenon and is not a universal license to kill unarmed citizens for the slightest possibility of a threat. Again, no judgment in this particular case yet but the evidence in favor of the cop's action is, at best, shaky as of now. Still a lot we don't know.
 

81usaf92

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This one is probably one of the very few that I might say unjustified until the whole story comes out.

The other one that happened where a black cop shot an armed black suspect... Justified
 

Bazza

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Heard some stuff on talk radio today - 9-1-1 calls from people saying the guy seemed to be on drugs (supposedly these calls have been released), the lady cop who shot him had extensive training on how to properly assess when you are dealing with a person on drugs, and lastly....from what they were saying....the guy wouldn't obey commands....kept walking back to his vehicle....then was reaching into his vehicle.

Now if all of that is true....the shooting has a little more credibility.

That said...I still don't know why the guy couldn't have been taken down without killing him...in other words...the whole situation handled without anyone getting hurt.

It also looks bad that he laid there for 2 whole minutes before anyone came to check on his health or render first aid.

But you know when cops tell you to stop moving...you stop moving. Until things change...that's what has to happen.
 

chanson78

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I know I am usually regarded as a fairly pinko commie around here, but to me when there is even 1% chance that someone could be dangerous, and there are other innocent bystanders around, shooting to wound seems like a bad idea. Cop movies I think are to blame for the idea that you can just wing a suspect in the shoulder and everything will work out.

Think about it this way, this guy had given no indication that he was stopping. He had been tased. He allegedly appeared to be on drugs. He was reaching into his car to get something. If all the above is true, at this point he has had a minimum of 4 chances to not get shot. This is on him.

Playing devils advocate, what happens if they don't shoot to kill? He leans in and reaches for a home made pipe bomb, a semi auto pistol, whatever. Then the debate is why didn't they shoot to kill, he obviously had nefarious intentions because he wasn't stopping, tasing didn't even bother him so he was obviously on drugs, and what else would he be reaching into his car for other than a weapon. Perspective is a hell of a thing.

Not to mention the whole public sector cost that would come out of this if they shoot him in the leg. This whole thing would go to court, and there is now likely a multi million dollar lawsuit to be paid at taxpayer expense.

I'm sorry for the guys family, and right wrong or indifferent, when a cop has a gun drawn someone, it's not a good idea to disobey what the cop says.
 

Bubbaloo

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Once again, maybe just maybe the police, did not "act stupidly". The priors and outstanding warrants, his actions while on drugs and the recent police killings doomed this exchange from the get go.
 

81usaf92

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Heard some stuff on talk radio today - 9-1-1 calls from people saying the guy seemed to be on drugs (supposedly these calls have been released), the lady cop who shot him had extensive training on how to properly assess when you are dealing with a person on drugs, and lastly....from what they were saying....the guy wouldn't obey commands....kept walking back to his vehicle....then was reaching into his vehicle.

Now if all of that is true....the shooting has a little more credibility.

That said...I still don't know why the guy couldn't have been taken down without killing him...in other words...the whole situation handled without anyone getting hurt.

It also looks bad that he laid there for 2 whole minutes before anyone came to check on his health or render first aid.

But you know when cops tell you to stop moving...you stop moving. Until things change...that's what has to happen.
If PCP was in his system it would be more dangerous to take him down. But who knows what the full story is right now. Look at the Charollette case right now. It looks that the protesters are in the wrong and the cops are in the right after a good amount of time passed
 

selmaborntidefan

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CA basically said my thoughts here.

When I first saw it, I figured we finally had an actual video here (multiple ones). That's because almost invariably, every single video I'm demanded to accept the idea establishes we have a bunch of loose cannons all over the place doesn't ever actually show the actual moment. However, there was one immediate problem I had - yes, the man had his hands up but never in my life have I ever known a cop to actually want the suspect to go over to his car. That's the one place one can expect he has an advantage and can do something.

The other thing that bugs me is them literally not doing anything to help or save him after shooting him. Of course, I think we can solve this. Why not just mandate every single citizen wear body cameras? That'll give you more than one angle. You can even require the potential criminal to purchase one themselves or face a fine on their income taxes. To heck with reality, let's get busy solving this problem (and if you're going to mock my solution, you better have one of your own).
 

Bama Reb

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CA basically said my thoughts here.

When I first saw it, I figured we finally had an actual video here (multiple ones). That's because almost invariably, every single video I'm demanded to accept the idea establishes we have a bunch of loose cannons all over the place doesn't ever actually show the actual moment. However, there was one immediate problem I had - yes, the man had his hands up but never in my life have I ever known a cop to actually want the suspect to go over to his car. That's the one place one can expect he has an advantage and can do something.

The other thing that bugs me is them literally not doing anything to help or save him after shooting him. Of course, I think we can solve this. Why not just mandate every single citizen wear body cameras? That'll give you more than one angle. You can even require the potential criminal to purchase one themselves or face a fine on their income taxes. To heck with reality, let's get busy solving this problem (and if you're going to mock my solution, you better have one of your own).
There's nothing to solve. Cops are trained to shoot to kill, thus they knew he was dead. Do you expect them to perform CPR on a man they just killed? The most they might do imo is to cover the body with a tarp. Otherwise, no problem, nothing to solve.
 

81usaf92

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There's nothing to solve. Cops are trained to shoot to kill, thus they knew he was dead. Do you expect them to perform CPR on a man they just killed? The most they might do imo is to cover the body with a tarp. Otherwise, no problem, nothing to solve.
Wrong. Cops are trained to protect and serve, and are instructed to use the amount of force reasonably necessary to deescalate the situation in a manner that can be supported by "objectivable reasonableness". The are also trained in CPR, Self aid buddy care, and blood borne pathogen safety quiet regularly.

Are they doctors? Can they legally determine if he is dead? No, so given their job description it would probably be wise to atleast look like they are doing something to save his life, and possibly limit the number of morons trashing the city. So Selma has a valid point.
 

Catfish

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Wrong. Cops are trained to protect and serve, and are instructed to use the amount of force reasonably necessary to deescalate the situation in a manner that can be supported by "objectivable reasonableness". The are also trained in CPR, Self aid buddy care, and blood borne pathogen safety quiet regularly.

Are they doctors? Can they legally determine if he is dead? No, so given their job description it would probably be wise to atleast look like they are doing something to save his life, and possibly limit the number of morons trashing the city. So Selma has a valid point.
Yeah, but shoot to kill and cover the bodies with tarps is more satisfying.
 

AV8N

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Instead of body cameras, we need personal drones that can fly around us and capture all the angles.

There are definitely some bad cops out there, but I'm still finding it hard to believe that there is some nationwide conspiracy of cops of all races and both sexes determined to hunt down innocent minorities like it's Pokemon Go.
 

Bazza

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OK here's what we've been waiting for.....

You can read this and decide for yourself - but to me it makes a lot of sense and I tend to believe this is what happened. I know there are plenty of situations where cops overreact but at some point people have to be held accountable when they don't follow a cop's direction and the situation turns to one of lives being threatened.

Tulsa Police Officer Shares Her Side of the Story in Terence Crutcher's Shooting

 

HartselleTider

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Wrong. Cops are trained to protect and serve, and are instructed to use the amount of force reasonably necessary to deescalate the situation in a manner that can be supported by "objectivable reasonableness". The are also trained in CPR, Self aid buddy care, and blood borne pathogen safety quiet regularly.

Are they doctors? Can they legally determine if he is dead? No, so given their job description it would probably be wise to atleast look like they are doing something to save his life, and possibly limit the number of morons trashing the city. So Selma has a valid point.

I used to do armed security for a government contractor years ago. We worked in conjunction with local law enforcement, since we were basically securing a small city. A power plant with 4,000 construction workers, all with access to many tools and other things they can use as weapons to kill or cause harm. Many of my fellow guards were former cops, deputies, prison guards, and state troopers. The money in government security was better, and it was a little less dangerous than being out on the street dealing with the absolute scum of humanity on a daily basis.

We carried our service weapon, hand cuffs, expandable baton, and pepper spray on our belts. You're trained on which one is best to use depending on the situation and several factors that I'm not going to get into. But let me be perfectly clear on something...you're trained that if you ever unholster your weapon, you better be ready to pull the trigger. If you feel you have to pull the trigger, you shoot to kill. Period. As my instructor used to put it, "There's two things I'm allergic to....hot lead and cold steel".

If you've made the decision to shoot, then you better have made that decision because you felt this perpetrator was a threat to yours or someone else's life. Once you've made that decision, you shoot to kill.

Now, all this obviously happens much faster than that. And things aren't ever crystal clear when you're faced with this type of decision. You just make the best decision you can, and one that gives the best chance for you to go home to your family that night.

These people that talk about these cops needing to shoot dangerous criminals in the leg or arm to injure them are completely clueless. You aim center mass to kill. But also to decrease your chances of missing the target. Those chances only increase the further from center mass you get. Nevermind the lawsuit that's going to follow after that criminal sues you for shooting them in the leg or arm. Your life is ruined.

Furthermore, anybody can sit there on the couch and just watch the news coverage of these riots and see why these people are getting shot by police. You've got cops out there in riot gear trying to get these people off the streets and stop them from destroying property and committing crimes. What do they do? They just keep standing there. Throwing bottles, etc. They want confrontation with the cops.

You can literally sit there and watch an explosion of tear gas go off right in the middle of these idiots and they scatter. They run about 20 yards, stop....gather up again, throw bottles, rinse and repeat. They simply will not do what the cops are telling them to do. This is exactly the type of behavior they exhibit during these encounters with law enforcement that ends up with someone shot. It's the exact same thing. They won't obey the commands of law enforcement, and they intentionally portray themselves as a threat by not obeying the simplest of commands whether it's dropping the gun or knife, or simply taking your hands out of your pockets and keeping them where law enforcement can see them.

If the perp gets out of their vehicle and starts walking towards the cop with a gun in his hand, it's a pretty safe assumption they're going to get shot. I'd call that "objectivable reasonableness". I don't care if Joe Q. Public agrees with me or not, what I care about is living to go home to my family, and letting a jury of my peers decide based on the evidence whether it was justified. Either way, the officer still has to live with the burden of taking someone else's life after giving them as much opportunity as possible to stay alive.

I'm convinced most of these people don't want to live anyway. They simply can't after exhibiting some of the behavior I've seen. This guy had already been tased.

The false narrative being spewed out there constantly has to stop. It's all BS.
 
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